Examination of Witness (Questions 460-479)
WEDNESDAY 5 MARCH 2003
SIR HOWARD
NEWBY
460. Are you going to be separating out your
assumptions about funding in terms of honours degrees and foundation
degrees?
(Sir Howard Newby) Broadly speaking, yes, but I should
remind the Committee that funding does follow student demand.
Therefore, if there is not sufficient student demand to fill foundation
degree places, we will switch that funding into other forms of
higher education provision, as I think we should.
461. Can I read an assumption from what you
have just said that you yourself do not think that there is a
demand for foundation degrees?
(Sir Howard Newby) No, I think there is a demand but,
as I say, it is very patchy at the moment. However, it is early
days and I think that foundation degrees are developing rather
well in the face of some of the scepticism which is apparent about
them in some quarters. I think that the real issue is engaging
employers with foundation degrees. They have an absolute right
to be involved in the design of the curriculum for foundation
degrees and we have found the engagement of employers really rather
patchy.
462. One of my concerns about the issue of foundation
degrees is the assumption that the expansion in that area means
widening access agenda as well which effectively means that those
from a poorer background will be going into foundation degrees
rather than into honours degrees. Is that your assumption as well?
(Sir Howard Newby) It is not my assumption but it
is my worry and I think we must avoid at all costs a situation
arising in which a potential student from a poor background, if
he or she is lucky, can obtain a bursary at a top-up fee charging
institution and, if they are unlucky, is consigned to a local
FE college with no prospect of progression onwards. I think that
would be an absolute disaster, which is why I keep emphasising
this notion of educational progression which is where foundation
degrees have a real part. I think that the White Paper is really
very commendable on setting out this alternative route through
and into HE to put alongside the traditional three A level entrant,
to broaden the base of recruitment into higher education and then
progress the students through, and that progression route must
involve a clear pathway for students from foundation degrees onto
honours degrees and it must be consistent right across the country.
There is a lot of good practice in the sector at the moment on
this but it is not consistently applied across the country and,
at the Funding Council, we do want to do something about that.
Chairman
463. Is it not the case, if you saw the reports
of Margaret Hodge's evidence to this Committee, that foundation
degrees are going to be seen as an entity in themselves but will
not be seen as a pathway into anything else at all?
(Sir Howard Newby) I think we must give the students
the option of progressing beyond foundation degrees. If we are
talking about the expansion that Ms Munn referred to, we know
that the vast bulk of the students that we want to bring into
the sector to hit the Government's target will indeed have to
come from the lower socio-economic groups. We also know that the
vast bulk of those will want to go to their local institution.
The White Paper did not give us planning powers to plan the provision
for such students and therefore we are dealing with this, for
historical reasons, rather patchy nature of provision around the
country. I was in Doncaster recently and we are trying to do something
to improve the provision of HE in Doncaster, but it is no good
telling students in Doncaster that 12 miles down the road in Sheffield
there are two universities. They will not go. They simply will
not go.
Valerie Davey
464. Despite their quality and the beauty of
the city!
(Sir Howard Newby) Indeed and they will not go from
Barnsley either and I can repeat this story time and time again.
Chairman
465. So you would regret the collapse of the
talks between Huddersfield University and Doncaster College?
(Sir Howard Newby) It is difficult for me to comment
on matters of that kind! All I would say is that it is very important
that we do provide high-quality provision in under provided areas
like Doncaster and the reality is that that is going to have to
be provided through a collaborative arrangement with other institutions
and whether, in the Doncaster case, it is Huddersfield or Hull
or Sheffield Hallam, I retain an open mind.
Jeff Ennis
466. Just to expand on the point you were making
there in terms of the need for collaboration between FE institutions
and HE institutions, I take it that you feel that is essential
if we are to actually expand the access situation?
(Sir Howard Newby) Indeed.
467. Will FE then be positively promoting the
need for this sort of collaboration within the higher education
sector?
(Sir Howard Newby) They certainly will.
468. Going back to the point you made about
the fact that, in your opinion, it appears that the system is
becoming two-tier in terms of expansion in that the students from
the lower socio-economic backgrounds are being steered more towards
the foundation degree scenario than the honours degree scenario,
is that how it is going to operate in practice? Is it as pessimistic
as that?
(Sir Howard Newby) I sincerely hope it will not be.
I do not think they are being steered towards it, it is just the
nature of the provision locally. If there is no higher education
institution in an area, they have little alternative, frankly,
than to try and seek higher education provision in an FE college
and because the Learning and Skills Council does have a statutory
obligation to make provision available to meet local need, which
we do not have but which I confess I would rather have liked to
have had, then there is this issue.
469. On a point of clarification, do you feel
that the expansion in foundation degrees is going to be done primarily
through the FE sector rather than the HE sector?
(Sir Howard Newby) Yes.
470. Do you see any HE institutions actually
tackling it?
(Sir Howard Newby) Yes.
471. What sort of level of university do you
think that will be done by? Will it be the new universities that
primarily do it?
(Sir Howard Newby) No. There are two Russell Group
universities which already have foundation degree schemes: Warwick
and Southampton. I very much see others joining in this as part
of their collaborative arrangements with other institutions. I
think there are factors such as the National Health Service's
needs to create its own continuing professional development route
for their staff which will bring in not only the traditional,
if you like, Russell Group type universities with medical schools
but also new universities as well and Bob Fryer and I have already
had preliminary discussions about how we can organise this on
a national basis. I can well see, looking forward, that we will
be working together with the NHS and the Department of Health
to develop foundation degree schemes which meet their needs and
we will be providing probably in a rather more strategic way foundation
degree places to fulfil those needs.
472. How do you see the expansion of the foundation
degree scenario impacting on the current HNC and HND provision?
(Sir Howard Newby) I think it is already apparent
that a lot of current HNC and HND provision in particular is likely
to end up being re-branded as foundation degrees. Not just re-branded
but developed to foundation degree standards. However, I do think
that there will remain a very important place for HNCs and HNDs
as part of this progression to which I keep referring. My vision,
if you like, is that a student of any age can get a taste for
higher education perhaps by doing an evening class, an adult learning
class, whatever it might be, at a local institution and, from
that point on, there is a natural and seamless pathway through
a range of higher education qualifications that could ultimately
lead to a PhD in a research strong university.
473. Previous witnesses—and I cannot remember
who they were, Chairman, and perhaps you will help me out on this—seemed
to perceive that HNDs and HNCs were a higher national vocational
qualification whereas a foundation degree was more of a localised
qualification, shall we say.
(Sir Howard Newby) I have to say that I do not accept
that distinction. I think these issues are quite variable between
different sectors of the economy, but I do not accept that distinction.
Indeed, I think it is very important that foundation degrees have
the same kind of national currency, if I can put it that way,
as HNCs and HNDs have had.
Mr Turner
474. I will not ask how your mental map places
the Isle of Wight and Portsmouth in relation to Doncaster and
Sheffield.
(Sir Howard Newby) I was Vice-Chancellor at Southampton
for a number of years, so I know the Isle of Wight well and there
is a serious problem of HE provision on the island, as you must
know.
475. Indeed and doubtless you will be putting
it all right.
(Sir Howard Newby) We do our best.
476. Do you think that Mrs Hodge was right to
draw a correlation between what she called Mickey Mouse courses
and dropout rates? She seemed to imply that, if a course had a
high dropout rate, it was a Mickey Mouse course.
(Sir Howard Newby) I do not accept that there are
any Mickey Mouse courses in higher education and, if we are trying
to encourage more students to come down through a vocational route,
as I would describe it, this alternative pathway into higher education,
I think it is very important that people like me do not make this
hard and fast distinction between vocational higher education
and I do not know what the alternative is but academic higher
education. There are many so-called academic qualifications of
a traditional kind in higher education which are actually vocational:
medicine, law, engineering and so on. As the economy changes,
so we have to recognise that the provision of more vocationally
orientated higher education qualifications are going to change
as well and it is of course patently obvious that programmes which
would not have been considered in higher education a generation
ago are now very vital to be within higher education to provide
the kind of skill levels and professional vocational qualifications
that the country needs.
477. Putting aside the particular description—and
I think she referred to certain institutions as well—are
those institutions and the courses with high drop-out rates particularly
identifiable in any other sense? Are they, for example, those
that take a larger number of students who are less likely in the
past to have gained access to higher education?
(Sir Howard Newby) That is broadly true but the highest
correlation over drop-out rates in higher education are prior
educational attainment. So, those institutions which admit large
numbers of students with lower educational attainment at school
and FE level tend to have the higher drop-out rates and that in
turn is correlated with socio-economic background.
478. I assume you think that the foundation
degree will assist you in overcoming that?
(Sir Howard Newby) Indeed, but the other thing that
will assist in overcoming this is first of all recognising the
problem and then understanding what the nature of the problem
is. These students need a lot more learning support in their first
year in particular. If they get through the first year, all the
evidence is that they will go on to qualify and graduate, but
they do need more support in the first year and indeed, before
going into the first year, more induction courses, more summer
schools and more taster courses in order that they become familiar
with the styles of learning which are present in higher education
compared with what they have been used to in their previous educational
experience. That is why we want to do something about giving institutions
additional resources to provide that learning support and bear
down on dropout rates, which is the former Secretary of State's
phrase.
479. Hitherto, you have been able to do that
to some extent through the postcode premium. Mrs Hodge said that
she would ask you if you would let us have that. Has she and will
you?
(Sir Howard Newby) Let you have what?
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