Examination of Witnesses (Questions 140-158)
THURSDAY 20 MARCH 2003
MR JOHN
EDMONDS AND
MR NEIL
CLEEVELEY
140. In terms of filling those gaps and raising
the level of understanding about what implementation of best practice
means, you are looking for a statutory right for individuals to
do what? Is that a statutory right to time off for training and
for health and safety representatives? Why can the environmental
issue not be picked up by the health and safety representatives,
for example?
(Mr Edmonds) It can be and in some cases our safety
rep would be interested and involved in environmental matters
and would be the front line person, but there are some very serious
problems here. First of all, in relation to health and safety,
management are under general and specific requirements to look
after the health and safety of the people who work for them. There
are no analogous responsibilities in the environmental field.
There are particular environmental regulations but there is nothing
like the Health and Safety at Work Act and the duty of care issues,
and so on there. The safety rep's responsibilities and actions
depend very much on management having those responsibilities.
The safety rep, if you like, is the enforcer to make sure that
the manager lives up to the legal requirements. Sometimes we go
beyond that but that is the baseline. There is no analogy with
the environmental issues. There need to be environmental requirements
on managers in law generally, apart from the individual ones for
the chemical industry and so on, which will then create a framework
for activity by a representative. Without that, frankly, people
can just be shrugged off.
141. Following the establishment of the teaching
of representatives, you would envisage an environmental representatives
in the workplace?
(Mr Edmonds) Ideally it would be best if we had an
environmental representative who was separate from the safety
representative with different but no doubt overlapping training
and different responsibilities. The trade union movement is moving
much more towards the specialist representative dealing with particular
areas rather than the all-rounder. The environmental representative
would be one of a cluster of representatives who would be doing
this. Employers seem very much more happy with this arrangement
as well, because then they have a specialist rather than the same
person coming along and acting on everything. That is what we
would like to see. There would have to be rights for the environmental
representative, but those rights would have to relate to general
responsibilities on management, which do not exist in British
law at the moment.
142. How far has this idea reached? Is it just
something on a sheet of paper or are there active discussions
with employers and the DTI?
(Mr Edmonds) There are active discussions and more
strongly with employers in the more environmentally sensitive
industries. There are continuing discussions with Government about
creating this responsibility. Regrettably, the CBI has not shown
a great deal of interest, but the CBI does not show a great deal
of interest in a number of important things. Essentially, the
first point is a legislative one. You have to have some framework
within which people can operate, and that framework does not exist
at the moment. If we had that framework, and that is what we want,
we would want environmental reps to have rights analogous to the
rights of the safety representative. That requires us to involve
ourselves in the enormous training commitment that we made at
the time of the Health and Safety at Work Act, where half of that
was subsidised by Government or by the state, and that was good,
but we spent an enormous amount of time and resources on gearing
up our safety representatives for this new challenge. That is
what we want to do. In TUSDAC, we have been trying to develop
training arrangements for the trainers, then training for works
representatives, and then getting those mainstreamed into our
major training programmes so that everybody who trains as a union
rep has some element of environmental training. We are going to
move on to workplace training from here.
143. Moving on to training a little further,
the Union Learning Fund has provided a significant injection of
funds. Are you saying you are now able to have an environmental
training element in every programme that is run by the GMB for
its workplace representatives or by the TUC as a whole?
(Mr Edmonds) We certainly have not got that. That
is our objective. On the basis of mea culpa, we are guilty
in this respect: so far I think we have missed a substantial opportunity
to use learner reps and the Union Learning Fund to develop the
environmental issues. We are very conscious of that and we are
working hard to catch up because we have not done that. Up to
now, the learning rep has mostly been engaged in developing basic
skills. As you know, in this country we have an enormous problem
with basic skills. Maybe we can say there is a priority there,
but there is a big opportunity for the learner rep to develop
environmental training, and we have not put that as deeply into
the learning rep's responsibilities as we should have done.
144. Are there any particular examples of really
good practice, either in sectors or in particular companies, that
you could quote or write to the Committee about?
(Mr Edmonds) Yes, we would be happy to write to the
Committee about some of them. I am pretty proud of some of the
environmental work that has been done in what used to be Blue
Circle Cement. There has been a considerable effort there as a
major part of the partnership agreement. I think USDAW would be
very pleased with what is going on in Tesco's. We can put together
some examples. As you may know, the TUC has been working very
hard on making recycling very much a trade union issue. We are
developing some case studies, with a bit of Government support,
so that we can push these case studies around. We have one local
government, one national government and two private sector undertakings
from which we are drawing substantial lessons. That is going to
inform the training but these are also going to be used as models
for behaviour more widely. We can quote some good examples.
(Mr Cleeveley) To add to what John said about the
TUC training, we are hoping to get that off the ground this summer.
It will be available. We hope there will be a model for new reps
so that when a worker's representatives comes for his standard
TUC training on how to be a rep, there will be a module about
environmental training. That should spark an interest when he
goes back to the workplace, but we would also be looking to try
and make it work retrospectively for existing reps over time.
Follow-up support is missing at present. If they have an idea
at work and they want to do something about it, the training will
give them some of the skills and the confidence to speak to management.
We need to look at how the rep takes that further and ensures
that management properly engages and takes it to the next stage?
Chairman
145. Following on from Mr Chaytor's question,
you mentioned industry. If you were to suggest a champion of industry,
who would perhaps be the best person to give an overview of where
industry stands in relation to this whole agenda? Who would you
suggest?
(Mr Edmonds) You mean an industrialist,
a business leader?
146. Yes, a business leader or business champion:
who comes to mind?
(Mr Edmonds) How embarrassing. I suppose Ian Stevenson,
who is the Deputy Chair of the Carbon Trust and who has worked
in a variety of industries. He is now working particularly in
metallurgy. I think he would be good. Ian McAllister put in a
tremendous effort at Ford, but he has now moved away from Ford.
I am struggling a little bit to find some people who even speak
on environment issues.
Mr Ainsworth
147. I want to come back to one of the answers
you gave to Mr Chaytor about the learning representatives and
the role that they play in pushing this agenda forward. Is it
not true that with such huge problems in basic literacy and numeracy,
with huge needs to develop basic IT skills, this kind of sustainable
development agenda is always going to come second or third best?
There are only so many hours in the day.
(Mr Edmonds) No, I do not think so at
all. The issue of basic skills has come off second and third best
and we are trying and push that up the agenda. You can integrate
these things.
148. They are competing, are they not?
(Mr Edmonds) They are not necessarily competing. Basic
skills training is now almost exclusively undertaken on a PC,
so that people learn IT skills at the same time as they learn
basic skills. There is a reinforcement both ways and it also does
something for a person's self-esteem because not too many people
want to say, "I am on a course to learn to read and write",
but they do not mind saying they are on a computer course. We
learnt that lesson very early on. There is no reason why what
they are doing when they are going through the learning process
might not have a substantial environmental aspect. There is no
reason why you cannot integrate these things. One of the nice
things we have been able to do in the basic skills courses is
to take out various community issues, and that has been the subject
of discussion. People are learning skills in several different
directions at the same time. One of the great things is that people
with basic skills problems are not stupid. Anybody who has managed
to get through life without being able to read and write has to
be very bright! The capacity is there, so we can integrate these
things. I do not see them competing. I think it is wrong to say,
"Here is the environmental course. Here is the basic skills
course". If you have a proper training programme, you can
put these things together.
149. You made the observation earlier, and I
think it is absolutely right, that in too many cases a company's
commitment towards these issues depends on the whim of an individual
manager. Is not the same true, though, for the trade union commitment
in individual circumstances?
(Mr Edmonds) I would accept that comment or criticism
at the moment. That is what we have to tackle. We have enthusiasts,
and that is great, and they can spread the word. We have to move
from a list of nice examples of people who have taken personal
initiatives to some genuine increase in understanding. In that
we must make the linkages between what happens in the workplace,
what happens in the local community, and some of the wider issues
of climate change and so on. Those links are not being made very
well in our society at the moment, and they should be. One of
the things we are very keen on and have spent time talking about
in TUSDAC is the Irish work with plastic bags. Taxing plastic
bags in itself was not, as we understand it, the main issue—and
many of us have good contacts in Ireland—but the fact that
the Government intended to do that. This created a debate about
sustainability and waste and all the issues of recycling that
we wanted on the agenda. We think there is a good case for doing
the same thing here to raise awareness. It need not necessarily
be about plastic bags; it can be about fridges, tyres or abandoned
vehicles, it does not matter. You just have to use something which
people care about as the basis for a wider debate. The way the
debate took off in Ireland was extraordinary. People suddenly
found that they had baskets of bags and they started using them.
150. That is very interesting. Can we move forward?
I wanted to ask you about the comment made in the TUSDAC submission
on the need for practical help for people who really want to do
the right thing in the workplace. The Co-operative Insurance people
we are seeing next have said that here are 60 different organisations
out there all providing help, many of them supported by Government
or by the EU or other public funds in some way. Is the problem
not that there is not anyone out there giving help but that the
help is not in a form that people can use?
(Mr Edmonds) I think you need a great deal of initial
knowledge in order to be able to make use of the help. I sit as
a trade union board member on the Carbon Trust. One of the things
that the Carbon Trust is trying to do is to simplify its website
and all its contact with people who are looking to it for advice
and support. Beyond a certain point, it is extremely difficult
but in certain cases we do not have an integrated support mechanism;
it is all over the place. The same thing applies to environmental
training. I have a note here from the Environment Agency that
lists for me the environmental training initiatives taken by various
public sector undertakings. You need a PhD to understand this.
There is a real communication problem.
151. On the subject of general skills levels,
again the CIS say that, in terms of their own experience with
their own employers, they have to work very hard to fill in the
gaps in the basic science knowledge. Do you think this is a general
problem?
(Mr Edmonds) Yes.
152. You have come across that with your own
members?
(Mr Edmonds) Yes. I think it is a general problem
in our society. The Skills Task Force, which was set up by the
relevant Ministry about three years ago, identified mathematical
and scientific skills as a black hole in British knowledge. That
is absolutely true. This is not just about science but about technology.
We have members working in Panasonic in south Wales. The Japanese
management are kind enough to tell us that the great thing about
the people who come out of school in Japan is that they know how
a television works. If you are putting a television together,
it is not a bad idea to know how it works. They have to do that
in south Wales; they have to teach them the basic science and
technology.
153. What kind of dialogue are you having with
the DfES about these issues?
(Mr Edmonds) With the DfES very little; with the DTI
some; with senior Government Ministers, including the unit in
Downing Street, some; with the Treasury on basic skills, a lot.
154. Why are you not talking to the DfES or
is it that they are not talking to you?
(Mr Edmonds) The DfES is interested in schools at
all levels; we are interested in skills. Skills appears in the
title of the DfES; it does not appear too prominently in their
activities. If you are looking to enhance basic skills, I think
probably you need to fill in some of these important gaps. Then
you might have a more productive discussion when talking to the
Treasury, which of course, piloted the activities which are now
going on across the country. That came from Treasury and not from
the DfES. I do not want to get involved in the turf war stuff
but trade unions are power-seeking organisations and we go to
people who can do things, never mind what the titles say.
Mr Ainsworth: I think you have made your position
very clear on that.
Chairman
155. I am interested in where you think the
power is in terms of who can influence this agenda. Presumably
you are saying it should be the DfES but in practice it is much
more with DTI or Treasury. Do you feel that the No.10 Unit is
somehow managing to balance and find a way forward?
(Mr Edmonds) It has been helpful. Frankly,
here we are talking about an initiative that goes much wider than
the environment. I think there is a lot of frustration in the
trade union movement that the issue of skills has such a low position
on the agenda compared with pre-21 education. Our members are
in work. They want access to skills, including environmental skills.
No one much seems to be giving the attention they should be to
that.
Mr Chaytor
156. In June the Government will publish its
Skills Strategy. Presumably the TUC has had an input into that.
That is your opening with the DfES, is it not?
(Mr Edmonds) We live in hope. With respect,
I have been through the last 20 years when almost every month
we were going to have a skills policy and we had a schools policy.
Chairman
157. In regard to the recommendations which
this Committee could be considering, what would you message be
to this Committee in respect to the Skills Strategy that is coming
out in June in terms of what it should contain and the environmental/skills
agenda?
(Mr Edmonds) Using the word in your title,
I think the audit approach here is very important. Just as the
TUC at the moment is trying to inject environmental training into
its mainstream training activity, we ought to audit the skills
activities to see whether they are meeting the needs of a society
based on the principle of sustainable development. Many of the
organisations which have the opportunity of working in this area
of learning skills, councils and so on, are not taking account
of environmental concerns in drawing up their programmes. I think
there is a real leadership role here. The Government can say,
"Let us look through all the skills initiatives, such as
they are, and see whether sustainability and environmental questions
have actually been taken into account." One of the things
that TUSDAC has been in dialogue about with the various agencies
is whether that has been the case. We do not think it has been.
158. We have to leave it there for now. Afterwards,
if you feel that there are issues which could have been covered,
please do not hesitate to write to us. May I thank both of you
for your time. That is much appreciated.
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