Examination of Witnesses (Questions 389-399)
Thursday 15 May 2003
MS JUDITH
COHEN AND
MS CAROLINE
NEVILLE
Q389 Mr Ainsworth: May I formally
welcome you to the sub-committee and thank you very much indeed
for sparing the time to come along and talk to us. In the course
of our meeting, we would like to gain an idea of how our two organisations
are working on the question of education for sustainable development.
May I ask you to begin with, in addition to any opening remarks
that you may wish to make anyway, to tell us a little about your
two organisations, how you think that things are going in the
still relatively early days, what your prime objectives are and
the way you work with each other.
Ms Neville: I would be very pleased
to start. We are pleased to be here this morning. I am Caroline
Neville, the Director of Policy and Development at the national
office of the Learning and Skills Council. I joined the Learning
and Skills Council in November 2002. I have been there around
six months. Prior to that, I was in the further education sector
for 23 years, the last 13 of which I was a college principal and
the last nine of those Principal of Norwich City College in Norfolk,
which is a large college of further and higher education. That
is my background. The Learning and Skills Council is a single
unitary body that has been in existence for just over two years.
It has two key functions, which are related; that is the strategic
planning of post-16 education and training and the funding of
that education and training, obviously within the confines of
its resources. Its focus is, however, on delivery and there are
47 local offices, local councils, arms of the organisation. We
are a unitary organisation and the Learning and Skills Council
has a budget of between £8 billion and £9 billion to
deliver its remit. The establishment of a Learning and Skills
Council brought together, for the first time, a number of strands
of post-16 education and training, which had, prior to that date,
been funded separately by different organisations, notably: further
education, work-based learning; and sixth form funding. We are
also responsible for the development of adult community learning,
obviously in partnership with the local authorities. The organisation
is very much there to make a difference. We work very closely
to the PSA targets which are set, and our own mission and objectives
reflect those targets. We have two key priorities within what
is quite a broad scope of responsibilities. Those two priorities
relate to 16 to 18 year olds in terms of participation and achievement
at levels 2 and 3 (in relation to achievement, but we do have
a participation objective in relation to 16 to 18s), and also
in closing the skills gap, which is extremely high on our agenda.
We may indeed return to that later. The Learning and Skills Council
itself has two strategy committees, one for young people, the
Young People's Learning Committee, which is chaired by Chris Banks,
and the Adult Learning Committee, which is chaired by John Monks.
I support both of those committees in my role as Director of Policy
and Development, together with the appropriate head of either
the Young People or Adult Learning Committees. I will pause there
and obviously I will be happy to answer any further questions
in relation to the structure of the organisation.
Ms Cohen: I am Judith Cohen and
I work for the Learning and Skills Development Agency, which is
an independent company with the board being appointed by the Secretary
of State for Education.
Q390 Mr Ainsworth: That is independent
of what?
Ms Cohen: It is set up as a private
limited company. We work entirely to contract, and so our funding
generally comes on a contract basis from the DfES and from the
Learning and Skills Council. As such, we work on research, on
curriculum development and on management training and those issues
that widely affect the Learning and Skills Councils. In my role,
I have been managing the Sustainable Development Education Programmes
for the last two years that the Learning and Skills Council has
funded. We have also delivered a seminar series of our own, which
was entitled "Learning to Last". In fact, we coined
the term in the first place. I have brought you books, if you
care to read them, which give you a fuller flavour of the blue
skies research work that the agency does. I also work in Yorkshire
and Humber as a Regional Director for the Learning and Skills
Development Agency, in which role I run good practice networks
and bring the agency's work more closely to the practitioners
and providers and form a conduit for intelligence and information
back to our national office.
Q391 Mr Ainsworth: I think a little
more information would help as to how your two organisations actually
deal with each other, how close you are and how interrelated are
your objectives and practical schemes and so on.
Ms Neville: The Learning and Skills
Council remit I have briefly described. Therefore, the focus on
research and curriculum development is extremely close to our
mission and we have a very close working relationship with the
Learning and Skills Development Agency. As Judith has said, we
in fact provide grants to the Learning and Skills Development
Agency for specific projects, research projects, and curriculum
and professional development assignments. Obviously that programme
is worked out in advance. There is a dialogue between us and we
have a very close working relationship.
Ms Cohen: Perhaps it would be
of interest to you to understand the range of work that we undertake,
which is quite large. The contracts that we work on with the Learning
and Skills Council are many and varied in terms of research. There
is a very heavy research focus to the work that we do. The curriculum
development programmes cover issues like: key skills; vocational
learning support; increased flexibility support programmes—that
is the programme for 14 to 16 year olds; a citizenship programme;
a widening participation programme, and so on.
Q392 Mr Challen: I wonder if I could
ask you, perhaps unfairly, not just because you only arrived in
November, about the remit letter from the Department for Education
and Skills where they state particular objectives that they want
to meet for sustainable development. Since then, how has the LSC
grappled with the content of that letter and what you are doing
to meet the objectives?
Ms Neville: Certainly in our initial
remit letter we were tasked then to promote sustainable development.
The Government's strategy really has four main priorities. It
has a social programme, which we describe as inclusion, social
progress for everyone, protection of the environment, the appropriate
use of resources, and of course a high and increased level of
employment for economic productivity within the economy. We have
contributed to sustainable development issues, or education for
sustainable development, to all four of those objectives Certainly
I would say the first in relation to social inclusion and the
fourth in relation to economic issues are core and central to
the work that we do. We are extremely concerned with developing
the capacity and capability of individuals and organisations for
them to develop their skills and thrive and prosper within the
community and within the economy, be they working or not working.
Very high on our agenda, as I have already said, is the importance
of developing skills, and basic skills has been a particular priority.
We obviously work in partnership with the Department to deliver
basic skills, and we are ahead of our milestone at the moment
in terms of delivery of basic skills. We see these things as fundamental
essentially to the empowerment and development of people, which
is central to our mission. With regard to sustainable development
and education for sustainable development, I think we have taken
a considered and phased approach. We are a relatively new organisation.
We have been given a broad remit, a significant remit, and we
think that we are well placed to be able to influence and contribute
to this agenda. In the approach that we have taken, and this is
a complex area and subject, we felt it very important to be able
to scope this complex area in conjunction and in partnership with
the Learning Skills Development Agency. We have undertaken a number
of projects, which have deliberately brought on board local learning
and skills councils, because we felt, in any event, rather than
being providers alone, it would be important to use the projects
as a way of developing and increasing awareness within local learning
and skills councils. So we have a number of specific projects,
which have been underway during the first period of our life,
and indeed they are currently being evaluated. I am happy to talk
to those, and I am sure Judith is as well.
Q393 Mr Challen: I was wondering
if you could give me an example that the value-added, if you like,
of sustainable development specifically brings to your work. Some
people say, and I would agree with them, that basic skills should
be fundamental to what you do anyway, regardless whether we call
it sustainable development.
Ms Neville: I agree it is fundamental
to what we do, but I believe that, in terms of the quality of
life for everyone and ensuring that that can be regenerated, it
is absolutely vital that people have the skills to take that forward.
With regard to sustainable development, we would certainly identify
a number of key projects, which I think have been extremely valuable
to us: greening the curriculum; developing sustainability champions;
a sustainability audit. This is across the country and we are
trying to establish what we see as good practice, to develop appropriate
guidance using the website, but not just the website; we obviously
want to go beyond that. That is quite a tangible objective that
we have to produce later this year, which is actually then a capacity
and capability tool for the network as a whole. They are quite
focussed projects.
Q394 Mr Challen: Do you have measurable
targets in relation to these?
Ms Neville: The projects do have
specific outcomes and each project is evaluated accordingly. We
do have independent evaluators taking that work forward.
Ms Cohen: On the value-added issue,
I think in terms of widening participation and using sustainability
issues, there has been a lot of value-added. There is a great
deal of public interest in, say, food, efficient and effective
transport, and so on. It is a way of contacting people that perhaps
would not have been appropriate otherwise or possible otherwise.
Q395 Mr Challen: I was gong to ask
you, Judith, about your overall approach to sustainable development
at the LSDA?
Ms Cohen: The LSDA sees that as
a very important, overarching concept, which the learning and
skills sector needs to work towards and develop expertise in.
We are very happy that we are involved in this.
Q396 Mr Challen: This is a question
for both of you. How do you go about selling the idea to your
partners and other people you work with to actually push forward
this specific agenda?
Ms Neville: We approach that in
a number of ways. Certainly the work that we have been involved
in, at the Learning and Skills Council and the Learning and Skills
Development Agency, I think provide a very important opportunity
to spread good practice and to promote the work that is going
on in colleges, providers and local learning and skills councils.
Very importantly, we try to use real change. Perhaps I could give
an example of that. We may want to talk about the curriculum later
on. I can give you a very interesting example of where we believe
we spread the word in an effective way, and that would be in relation
to curriculum development and the needs of a particular industry.
For example, the gas industry: the NVQ, which relates to the gas
industry, has recently been updated to include sustainable issues
and sustainable modules. The purpose behind that is very much
contextualised; it is to enable people working in the industry
to actually install up-to-date boilers, condensing boilers, which
in this country we were underutilising because of the low skill
equilibrium issue. I think the figures are that in The Netherlands
there are 85% of such boilers of a particular style—we were
only benchmarking at 25%. There was perhaps concern about being
able to install this particular technology. That technology in
itself is more environmentally friendly. That is a real example
of where, with the Energy Saving Trust and with other departments,
we can identify the needs of particular sectors; we can also apply
it to communities and actually try to influence the way the curriculum
is delivered, both in terms of content and in terms of load. That
seems to me a very effective way to get people listening to the
message and integrating it into their training, ways of working
and skills needs.
Q397 Mr Challen: Have you met with
any resistance from any people to whom you are getting this across
in trying to build in these new elements?
Ms Neville: I have to say I have
not, no; as an organisation, I have not received that feedback
from colleagues, no.
Ms Cohen: I think that working
more closely with the projects and the Project Steering Group,
for instance, and stakeholders in the learning and skills sector
that represents, is an important vehicle for spreading the word
of the work which goes on in the learning and skills sector. We
have the Environment Agency, the Sector Skills Development Agency,
the Adult Learning Inspectorate and so on within that steering
group. That is an influential body and it helps to build a consensus
around the concept of sustainable development and what it means
in practice. In terms of resistance, as in many spheres of education,
sustainable development meets resistance with small and medium
sized enterprises which do not understand the concept and do not
understand how it might affect their bottom line. In the same
way, it often meets resistance within educational institutions,
which do not understand that it is not just something extra to
do, but that actually this can make them work more efficiently
and effectively and save money, in fact.
Q398 Mr Challen: The DfES are developing
a new strategy on education for sustainable development. What
do you think it should contain so that you have a very clear steer
where this needs to go?
Ms Neville: Firstly, I would hope
that strategy is taken forward through a task group or a lead
group that actually brings together the appropriate partners.
Certainly LSDA and ourselves have worked together, and have done
so on a range of very significant issues, but we would be wanting
to work which we are, and to have a very clear role with the Sector
Skills Development Agency and also the skills councils in particular
areas, the Qualifications Curriculum Authority, and so on. There
are others. I think it is extremely important that we develop
this agenda in a coherent and planned way together. We welcome
the debate and discussion that is currently going on. Obviously
we have already committed ourselves to sustainable development
as an organisation within our own management arrangements. We
would certainly want the policy to be broad-ranging in the sense
that we are looking at social inclusion, economic issues and environmental
issues and the relationship between the three, but also being
able to drill down and focus in to ensure that all of those key
agencies that together make the difference in relation to education
and learning are able to develop curricula, enhance curricula,
provide community-based projects and initiatives for young people,
work-based projects for young people and adults, with the benefit
I think of private sector input. We would want a broad-ranging,
three-legged stool approach to sustainable development, drilling
down to develop curricula models and informal learning opportunities
across the piece.
Ms Cohen: We want to look to the
national strategy to direct learning, to look at the DfES and
across government initiatives and education agencies, to include
a remit which refers to sustainable development, and to have measurable
outputs. We want that strategy to include not only references
to curriculum development needs, a body of research evidence that
would be needed, but also recommendations on organisational practice
and behaviour in terms of accommodation and strategies and estates
management, and so on.
Q399 Mr Challen: Do you have anything
like an established forum where you meet with perhaps industry
bodies or others on a regular basis to discuss the education for
sustainable development needs, or is it more of an ad hoc,
bilateral kind of thing when it does happen?
Ms Cohen: Outside of the steering
committee in my own case, there is not a national group as yet.
Ms Neville: There is not a national
group. We are developing our own group, which will be led by local
learning and skills council, input in which we will involve our
key partners, but that is essentially an LSC-led group and I am
sure that other bodies, LSDA and so on, will have their own groups.
We would obviously welcome a national group to take this forward.
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