Examination of Witnesses (Questions 60-70)
2 JULY 2003
FIONA MACTAGGART
MP, MS MARGARET
ALDRED, MR
RICHARD TIPPETT
AND MR
TONY EDWARDS
Q60 Sue Doughty: Would it be possible
for the Committee to have a copy of that?
Ms Aldred: I think it would be
quite difficult for the Committee to have a copy of it because
it was a document which was associated with our bid to the Treasury.
As you will no doubt recall, there is always a vigorous debate
between spending departments and the Treasury as to what the bid
is and what the outcome is and I think there is not necessarily
complete congruence between the two, so I think it would be difficult.
We could give you advice on the issues that it covered.
Sue Doughty: That would be very helpful
because this Committee does find some difficulty in understanding
the transparency of that whole process, not only with your department
but with others. So you will understand that we are interested
in seeing how that whole process is working so that when we are
talking to individual departments it is a good opportunity for
us to ask questions in that area to see how it works in relation
to the Treasury.
Q61 Chairman: The Treasury has said
it is a matter for individual departments so you could make a
decision on the spot, Minister, to let us see that.
Fiona Mactaggart: As I have not
seen them all and as I am absolutely new to the department I think
you will, Chairman, forgive me if I do not take this opportunity
to make a decision on the spot! One of the things that I was struck
by in reviewing that policy, which I was looking at in preparation
for this, was that there was clearly a mechanism whereby if a
policy might have a potentially damaging effect on the environment
there was a requirement (because of this new requirement in the
process) to see how it could be mitigated. For example, we have
had to build more places in our prisons and we have succeeded
the doing the vast majority of that within the present prison
estate, not using up more land and so on, and in a way that is
a reflection of having a fairly robust mechanism to reflect on
how our policies do impact on the environment.
Q62 Chairman: Minister, the department
as such has not got an environmental management system, has it?
Fiona Mactaggart: The department
has an environment policy and it reports that in its Annual Report.
In addition, we are developing in our key sites environmental
management systems based on the BT Entropy system, the web-based
system.
Q63 Chairman: What do you mean by
your "key sites"? Does that mean the department with
its 14,000 employees or not?
Fiona Mactaggart: No, it does
not.
Q64 Chairman: Then why is the periphery
developing an environmental system but not the heart?
Fiona Mactaggart: I hope I have
misheard you. What the key sites are are largely those sites with
more than 50 employees—Queen Anne's Gate is one example—and
where we can control these matters. For example, the Immigration
Department at Heathrow and Gatwick could be counted as key sites
in terms of the numbers of people who work there but are not key
sites for this purpose because we rent the property from BAA and
we do not have control over the environmental impacts of the airports
in which those staff work. So the numbers of staff and the places
which are counted as key sites is a slightly flexible number because
some sites are key in that enough people work there and they are
big enough but are not counted as key for this purpose because
we could not have a system in say Gatwick and Heathrow because
we do not have the management control over the plant which would
enable us to do that.
Q65 Chairman: So these key sites
will never cover the whole of the department?
Fiona Mactaggart: No, but it would
cover a very substantial part of it, the majority of the employees.
Ms Aldred: If I could just say
that in my own area I have over 300 pay and pension staff who
are based up in Bootle, but these would not be counted because
they are actually tenants of a building where the primary occupant
is the Inland Revenue.
Chairman: I understand.
Q66 Mr Thomas: I would just like
to follow up one thing which flows on from the environmental management
systems and the work that you are already doing and that is about
the transport use. I wonder if you could give an example to the
Committee about transport mileage, whether it is going up or down,
what assessments you are making of CO2 and greenhouse gas emissions
from your use as a department of transport and can you give any
examples to the Committee of any innovations that you are bringing
forward to reduce the environmental impact of transport use by
all parts of the Home Office agencies as well if that is possible?
Fiona Mactaggart: On innovations
we have a policy that 70% of new fleet vehicles will be either
common rail diesel or dual fuel vehicles. We already have six
dual fuel vehicles and we are putting in place proper systems
to monitor and ensure that people are using the LPG provision
within the dual fuel vehicles. In addition, there is a lot of
difference at different sites. For example, we have a lot of employees
who, because of operational requirements, do depend on their cars
either because of peculiar shift patterns when public transport
is not available, that is obviously in prisons and so on, or because
of security issues in immigration enforcement or because they
are inspectors of some kind. So there is a number of roles which
we fulfil where it is very hard, although we are determined to
do this, to deliver a substantial reduction in car use. We have
had, as I say, the purchase of new vehicles of the kind I have
described. There are some sites—the Forensic Science site
in Birmingham, for example, where there is a free bus which runs
from the centre of Birmingham to the site and that has reduced
car commuting substantially. So we do have policies like that.
In the Prison Service we now have quite widespread video links
which means that we do not need energy-consuming transport arrangements
for prisoners particularly for remand hearings and so on. So there
is some innovation but we are very aware that we are still not
right at the forefront, which is where we would like to be, in
terms of reducing our dependence on CO2 emitting transport.
Q67 Mr Thomas: Do you promote car
sharing?
Fiona Mactaggart: We do. We will
be reducing the amount of car parking available in central London
by nearly 50% when we move to the new building in Marsham Street.
Every building which does have car parking available has a policy
about allocation of those car parks. In that policy car sharing
is one of the ways of getting points, living somewhere which is
inaccessible for public transport is another and so on. So we
have schemes in place. We have a single mileage payment arrangement
in place but nevertheless I think that we need more robust rewards
for low consumption vehicles and it is one of the things that
we are currently looking at.
Q68 Mr Thomas: Does the Home Office,
and the agencies, have a transport plan? The Government is encouraging
employers to take on board transport plans for employees. Are
you doing that yourself?
Fiona Mactaggart: Yes. They do
not cover every single site. There are 136 prisons altogether;
133 of them are covered by a travel plan. There are 18 further
plans covering 36 buildings because there are clumps of buildings
together. Our largest buildings do but there are some examples
which do not.
Q69 Mr Thomas: Finally, is ministerial
car use going to go down?
Ms Aldred: Not for the Home Secretary.
Fiona Mactaggart: I used to bicycle
and I am looking at bicycle use, although at the moment there
is no safe way of taking your box on a bicycle and I frankly do
not think that looking environmentally good and feeling physically
healthy by cycling but sending my box on a car is a very sensible
arrangement. So I am personally looking at this and indeed this
afternoon I was talking to my driver about electrically operated
cars in the Government car pool but so far we do not have any
specific plans so I would not like to raise your hopes.
Q70 Chairman: I can tell you, Minister,
in the last Labour Government, of which I was a member, we did
share cars and for six months I had no car. There was a problem
with the box, I agree, but there must be a way around that problem.
Fiona Mactaggart: Absolutely and
car sharing happens. I shared a car with a colleague earlier today.
It does happen. I think what we need to do is to get the most
intelligent ways of doing it. I mean, talking informally to my
driver, which I was doing, there seems to have been a reduction
in car use in this Government compared with—
Chairman: In the last Labour Government
Ministers in the Commons used to share with Ministers in the Lords
and that was one of the ways round it; you actually shared a car.
So think about it. Anyway, thank you very much indeed, Minister.
Your first ordeal by Select Committee is over. Thank you also
to your officials.
| 
