Examination of Witnesses (Questions 72-79)
MR MICHAEL
ROBERTS, MR
DAVID NORTH
AND DR
PAUL BROOKS
WEDNESDAY 15 JANUARY 2003
Chairman
72. Thank you very much indeed for coming today.
I am sorry for the slight delay in your appearance but there was
a vote and we had to take 15 minutes out to deal with it. We may
be interrupted by another vote and I apologise in advance if that
is the case.
(Mr Roberts) We understand.
73. Thank you for coming today and thank you
also for an excellent memorandum that you put into us. Is there
anything that you would like to add to that briefly before we
begin to cross-examine you?
(Mr Roberts) We are taking it as read that the Committee
has had the chance to absorb the submission. By brief way of reminder
I would refer to the fact that we indicate four areas of challenge
from the point of view of the business community's contribution
to improving performance on waste, and there are ten areas of
potential action which we identify in the report for taking things
forward, and I am sure members have had the chance to absorb that.
It might be worth perhaps allowing my colleagues to introduce
themselves before we begin. I am Michael Roberts, Director, Business
Environment at the CBI. We thought it would be useful to be accompanied
by two members of the CBI who can offer their particular perspective
on waste and I will allow them to introduce themselves.
(Mr Brooks) Paul Brooks, Group Environment Manager,
Corus, formally British Steel. We are both waste producers and
landfill operators and recyclers.
(Mr North) David North, Government and Industry Affairs
Director at Tesco's.
Chairman: Thank you both for sparing the time
to come along this afternoon. Mr Wright?
David Wright
74. Can I begin by focusing on the Government's
Waste Strategy 2000 which broadly sets out the changes the Government
believed were necessary to deliver sustainable waste management
over the next 20 years. In your view do you think that the Waste
Strategy 2000 is ambitious enough to deliver the step change in
culture that is necessary in terms of waste?
(Mr Roberts) I think you need to unpack that question
in trying to address it. Clearly, I think there is a distinction
between the challenge which faces the targets regarding municipal
waste from the challenge facing the targets on industrial and
commercial waste. We are not particularly focused on the issues
regarding municipal waste but it would seem that those targets
in particular are challenging. I think there is a question mark
about how far the Strategy as it currently stands will achieve
the targets by the timescales identified. With regard to industrial
and commercial waste and the targets there, you will be familiar
with the fact that there is a target for reducing the proportion
of waste going to landfill by 2005. One of the challenges there
in identifying how challenging that target is relates to the quality
of data that exists about waste arisings and then what subsequently
happens to the waste that is generated by industry and commerce.
Subject to that caveat, our sense is that the useful initiative
that has been put in place means that we are making good progress
towards achieving that target.
(Dr Brooks) First of all, I would say that we have
a very good record of reducing waste before Landfill Tax. Over
the last ten years we have reduced our landfill waste by over
60%.
Chairman
75. Is that Corus?
(Dr Brooks) That is Corus. The issue I see is how
to achieve the targets set out in the Government's Waste Strategy.
One of the issues over the Landfill Tax increasing significantly,
for example, is seeing it as a blunt instrument. For us in a highly
regulated sector—we have IPPC, where we have to minimise
waste, we will have the Landfill Directive which requires us to
minimise and reduce waste within technical and economic constraints,
and we have a Landfill Tax on top—in that sense for the
waste that is left at the end where we have little option we are
hit with a tax and that then is money out of the company. I am
in a good position in that half of our company is in the Netherlands
because the Netherlands have an entirely different system of covenants
and voluntary agreements in place of any taxes and there the system
works very well. They have challenging targets, they meet the
challenging targets but they have the money within the company
to invest, and I think it is a good example to look at.
David Wright
76. The Strategy really focuses on trying to
meet European Directives. Do you think there are any areas where
we could go further than we are currently going in relation to
the Waste Strategy?
(Mr Roberts) If anything, the instincts of our members
within business is a concern that many of the EU Directives are
in their own right challenging and that in some respects converting
the broad aspirations of those Directives into policies which
are then implemented is going to be extremely difficult. For example,
with regard to the Packaging Directive, we think the deadline
for implementing that is too short. We would favour an extension
of the deadline from the current date of 2006 to 2008, for the
simple reason it has taken an extra two years to come forward
with legislation. That in turn is going to make it more difficult
for all stakeholders to achieve. If anything, rather than looking
at increasing the degree of challenge, I think we need to take
stock of just how challenging the existing form of legislation
is.
77. In your memorandum you support the use of
targets to drive waste policy but you also emphasise the need
for these to be based on fairly rigorous assessment and hard data.
Does that mean as an organisation, as a body you think the targets
in the Waste Strategy are currently somewhat arbitrary?
(Mr Roberts) I do not think we have a particular view
on whether or not they are arbitrary. To be fair to policy makers,
one has to start somewhere and I suppose the decision on the targets
reached at the time of putting together the 2000 Waste Strategy
was on the basis of the best available knowledge that then existed.
It may well be that subsequently it has turned out that we have
a different picture of what is going on out there and one would
need to revise the target either upwards or downwards in the light
of that knowledge. I do not think we are yet at a stage where
we have that better knowledge. Our understanding is that the Environment
Agency is currently working on improving the amount of data and
the quality of data that is available but that work is not yet
complete.
78. You mentioned packaging, are there any other
areas that are causing business particular concerns? Are there
any areas within the Strategy where you think it is very strong
and you are supportive of the approach?
(Dr Brooks) Packaging is a particular concern of the
sector we supply so that is one of my concerns. I would not add
anything more for us.
(Mr North) I have only got a general comment on that
really in response to your question about whether the targets
are arbitrary and the extent to which the Government's existing
strategy is likely to succeed. I think our observation on that
is two-fold: first of all, in terms of arbitrariness, I question
really whether that is the most relevant question. The question
that we would pose is one about achievability and how those targets
should be achieved. If one looks at packaging, for example, and
targets on domestic or municipal recycling, then what one sees
is, over time, a ratcheting up of the targets but actually the
real world not keeping pace with those targets, so I think the
issue as we would look at it is not so much where the targets
are but how we actually get closer to those targets.
79. That is the idea of a target, is it not?
(Mr North) It is the idea of a target provided it
has some mechanism for achieving it. There always is a risk that
if you simply set a target and do not have effective mechanisms
for achieving it, either through measures that the Government
takes or by trying to incentivise the private sector, that those
targets are not going to be met. On your general point about whether
the Waste Strategy is likely to succeed, I wonder to what extent
the Government has already answered that question by asking its
own Strategy Unit to look again wholesale at the issue of waste
and how some of the issues that are not being dealt with can be
dealt with more effectively in the future, including by involving
the private sector more.
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