Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339)
MS BARBARA
HERRIDGE AND
MS DOREEN
FEDRIGO
WEDNESDAY 5 FEBRUARY 2003
320. Do you think that national Government should
earmark funding in such a way that local government cannot get
it directly, that they will have to do things with others?
(Ms Fedrigo) No, that is not what we are implying.
It is about guiding local authorities to continue to work together
more closely as part of the modernisation agenda and continuing
the best value regime. The signals are that it is better if you
work together.
321. Your memorandum seems to put the blame
for a lack of progress on waste issues on to the shoulders of
Central Government. Is that entirely fair or are there other people
who should have some of the blame?
(Ms Fedrigo) The broader issue of responsibility does
need to be addressed, which is that we all have responsibility
as industry, NGOs, individuals, government or whoever, in our
personal and professional lives. We have responsibility for the
resources that we use and the waste we produce. Much of the guidance,
especially following Rio, was focused on Central Government, Indeed,
we have the Sustainable Development Strategy, one of the headline
indicators of which is waste. That indicates, or it certainly
indicated up to1999, that the Government had an intention to achieve
some sort of objective. It feels as though we have faltered and
that the momentum has died, it has not been continued. That is
not to say that it always down to government, but certainly it
is down to government to initiate discussions with industry, civil
society and environmental organisations to form partnerships in
sharing the responsibility for achieving an objective.
322. In your memorandum you question whether
the Environment Agency is the best vehicle for collection and
analysis of data. Why do you think it possibly is not the best
vehicle? What is better?
(Ms Herridge) Firstly, there is a whole range of data
that needs collection. We talk elsewhere in our evidence about
the issue of data being colleted from local authorities in relation
to statistics on recycling, for example numbers of people participating
in recycling and best value performance indicators. What we are
saying is that there is a need for an organisation for centralisation
and co-ordination of data collection. Regulatory data is one type
of data; data on performance is another, and there is a range
of types. We are saying that we need some guidance and strategic
thinking about who collects what. There is also an issue about
trust and who people trust in terms of what data is provided.
I would say that the Environment Agency is trusted but we need
to recognise that there are different sorts of data. It may not
be in the remit, or it may not be the most effective use of resources
that every type of data is collected.
323. If there are difficulties is with the Environment
Agency, and you point to them, you need to point us to who else
think could do this.
(Ms Herridge) As an alternative, I would say that
DEFRA, the Government department, should have more of a data-collection
role. For example, the Office for National Statistics is collecting
data but it is not colleting all types of data. All we are saying
is that there needs to be a central role, and I believe that could
be a government department.
324. If you think that the Environment Agency
sometimes has a difficulty in being trusted with this data, are
you realistically telling us that DEFRA data would be trusted
more?
(Ms Herridge) I do not think I said that the Environment
Agency data would not be trusted. I think I said that it is about
impartiality in some cases and ability to collect data to the
standard that is necessary. In our evidence, we talk about returns
from local authorities going back for central statistics and the
fact that there is no requirement to supply that data, so it is
actually incomplete and we are basing decisions on incomplete
data. I do not think it is just an issue of trust; it is an issue
of resources, expertise and understanding the parameters of the
data that is to be collected and also the inadequacies of the
data collected.
325. I understand those questions of resource
and so on, but I do not understand why, if that is your problem,
you do not say that the Environment Agency should be better resourced
to collect the data. You do not say that; you say it is the best
vehicle. I am trying to get out of you what the best vehicle is.
(Ms Fedrigo) The shorthand answer, I suppose, in that
response is: are they the most appropriate? That does not mean
that they are not appropriate but that we have a series of surveys
that are completed by different local authorities, if we are talking
about local authorities specifically, and we have DEFRA, with
an annual survey; the Chartered Institute of Public Finance and
Accountancy (CIPFA) that has some data. Overlaid on top of that
is the Environment Agency. This was more about a co-ordinating
role and therefore bringing efficiencies and not the use of those
resources. We apologise if it appeared to be saying that the Environment
Agency was not an appropriate body. It is more: is it appropriate
that it is the only body to be undertaking that work as comprehensively?
Chairman
326. Ms Fedrigo, in answering Mr Owen Jones
a few moments ago, you used the phrase "the momentum has
died". Could you clarify that? When was there momentum and
when did it die?
(Ms Fedrigo) That was post-Rio.
327. That was a long time ago; it was 10 years
ago. There were great results out of Rio.
(Ms Fedrigo) Exactly, and it was more that the momentum
that came from that was that we had the creation of Local Agenda
21, the Climate Change Strategy, the Sustainable Development Strategy
and the Biodiveristy Strategy, and then it was almost as though
"well, we have done it and that is fine".
328. When do you date that feeling emerging?
Can you put a date on it?
(Ms Fedrigo) I cannot really.
329. We are talking about a long period of time,
10 years?
(Ms Fedrigo) Yes, we are. The Sustainable Development
Strategy, A Better Quality of Life, was published in 1999.
330. It did not die in1997?
(Ms Fedrigo) Interestingly enough, I went to a DEFRA
event yesterday about A Better Quality of Life, and there
was resounding recognition that we seem to have lost the cohesion
that was implied by the development of the strategy.
331. It has lost cohesion and has fragmented?
(Ms Fedrigo) Yes, it has fragmented in the individual
departments and we have not got the joined-up thinking that is
required. Indeed, if you look at what came out of the strategy
report, if we are gong to talk about waste management yet again
individually, even the strategy report comes out with waste management
being fragmented between too many departments and having different
approaches. Therefore, that cohesion is required.
332. Where precisely, at the moment, do you
think Central Government has to pick it up and run again?
(Ms Fedrigo) With the attention that this Committee
and the EFRA Committee has given to the strategy unit report and
the ministerial review, there is potential, and hence our organisation's
activities.
333. And a need?
(Ms Fedrigo) Absolutely, beyond just meeting directives.
Mr Thomas
334. I wanted to ask about Wasteline, because
you talk about this in your evidence. I was struck that you receive
4,000 inquiries per quarter. Are these inquiries from members
of the public?
(Ms Herridge) Yes.
335. Have you done a breakdown of those inquiries?
I am interested to know what the public are asking you, what information
they are looking for. This links back to Central Government, of
course: what should Central Government and those partners in local
government and devolved administrations be doing to provide that
need? Can you tell us a little more about that?
(Ms Herridge) The most common question is: "How
can I recycle and why can't I?" That is a very common question,
as is: "Why is it that I can't recycle?" or "My
neighbour or the street up the way has facilities to do X, I have
not, why is that?" A lot of it is about questioning service
provision. The general feeling is that people want to do something
but they do not know how and why it is not made simple and easy
for them. Yes, we do a breakdown of calls. I do not have the details
in my head. We also have an increasing number of people looking
for recycled products to buy. We have a separate website for that.
We are getting increasing numbers of web requests as well. I would
say that is probably the bulk of the interest.
336. The 34,000 inquiries are phone inquires?
(Ms Herridge) No, it is a mixture of web, written
and e-mail.
(Ms Fedrigo) It is worth saying that it is also a
source of information for businesses that want to recycle their
waste or which are looking for ways of doing that. We have many
consultants and students who are doing research into the area.
(Ms Herridge) We have seen an exponential rise in
requests and demands for that service.
337. Is there any real demand in that service
for information about reduction in the first place?
(Ms Herridge) That is a good question.
(Ms Fedrigo) We are not tracking those kinds of queries
closely enough. As the person who manages this, I am conscious
that we will be focusing on those types of queries as well. Following
on from the comment about our getting National Lottery funding,
it is worth saying that it is our intention to launch an enhanced
website. That is part of continual learning and public engagement.
We have received funding for that through the New Opportunities
Fund. That is about people feeling more engaged in decision-making
processes. It will not just be: here is how and why we want to
recycle plastic, but there will be more detailed information.
338. Do you think one particular thing where
Government could do more would be to educate people about reduction
in the first place?
(Ms Herridge) Yes, very definitely. We have the Waste
Minimisation Bill but there is a real opportunity to do more.
To be honest, in the minds of most people, they do not really
understand the term "reduction". When most people talk
about recycling, they mean everything: reusing their carrier bags
in their wastebin and putting something in the bottle bank. They
do not normally talk about composing in that context. I do think
there is also some frustration out there on the information line
particularly about packaging. People are concerned and they do
not know what they can do. They feel helpless about packaging.
339. It is take it or leave it. You know the
world has gone crazy when you buy wrapped bananas. You are dealing
with the public with Waste Watch, and that is why I am interested
in it. We have a Private Members Bill on kerbside collection.
How much demand would you ascertain from Wasteline that there
is for kerbside collection? Is that what people want?
(Ms Herridge) That is what people want. They want
it at their doorstep, simple and easy. A refuse collection service
comes to the doorstep once a week or once a fortnight and people
want the same for recycling. I think they also want clear instructions
about it. It is not just about providing the service but about
providing them with sufficient information so that they understand.
A couple of weeks ago I was out knocking on people's doors to
talk to them about the details of a kerbside scheme. It was amazing
the number of people who are confused about the service and did
not really know what could go in their container. There are misunderstandings
about it. They all say it is a fantastic service and it is great
to have it.
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