Examination of Witnesses (Questions 360-371)
DR LIZ
GOODWIN AND
MR RAY
GEORGESON
WEDNESDAY 5 FEBRUARY 2003
360. I think big companies with massive margins
are likely to be into this kind of thinking. My concern is that
it does not feed down to small business and you need to use trade
groups and federations to do that.
(Dr Goodwin) Absolutely.
(Mr Georgeson) I do not know if this is the best example,
but we look to the United States sometimes, and I know that in
the US per household they do generate far more waste than even
we do here per household in the UK, but the recycling economy
is much more mature there. They are10 or15 years ahead of where
we are right now. In America, there are websites and journals
which regularly publish in great detail market prices on a range
of materials and products. There is a much greater degree of transparency
in the market and more sight-on-seen trading and more evenness
in the way that the market operates. We are still some way from
that in the UK. Our real challenge is trying to accelerate our
progress from this standing start that feels like it has been
going on for years to a point where we meet Landfill Directive
and other directive targets within the timeframe. We are running
out of time.
Sue Doughty
361. WRAP has been working on the creation of
standards for composting recylates. You will recall that I had
the pleasure of attending the launch when you did this. How far
have efforts gone as far as making improved markets for recylates?
How is the market doing on compositing?
(Dr Goodwin) We are doing a number of things, for
example we are doing some research at the moment to give people
confidence. We are looking at growing media trials; evaluating
compost, compost and peat mixtures, and compost other material
mixtures. These trials will provide the confidence to the end
users that they can actually use this material. That is an example
of doing some research. We are also working with a group of purchasers/specifiers,
people like B&Q and Sainsbury's, i.e retailers, to identify
what their requirements are and we are trying to make sure that
we give them the information so that they are confident that they
can actually use the material.
362. Are these standards specifically helping
that process?
(Dr Goodwin) Yes.
(Mr Georgeson) The real issue is that we are going
to reach a point where a large buyer of a growing medium will
have confidence that the product that is generated from waste
will meet a standard that has been verified, tested and assessed
all the way through. That is what the Composing Association standard
and the BIS standard that we have funded will do. Currently, if
you are a sceptical horticultural buyer and you are thinking about
replacing the peat-based product that you are currently using,
you could be forgiven for not wanting to use a waste-derived compost
because you could not necessarily guarantee that it meets the
standard that you require for your product. That is what this
first stage of composting standards will achieve, as more and
more producers of compost are accredited and able to badge up
their product with the recognised symbol.
363. How do the standards that you are adopting
in this country for recycled materials compare internationally?
Have you any comparators?
(Dr Goodwin) Wherever possible, we are trying to make
sure that we learn from the work that has been done elsewhere.
For example, on compost standards, we did initially start off
by doing a survey across the States and Europe to identify what
was already out there, what was best practice and what we should
be adopting. In short, we were not reinventing the wheel but we
were learning from the best practice already out there. We are
doing the same thing across the other material streams as well,
where we are looking at standards and specifications. Initially,
we are trying to find out what else is out there to make sure
that we do not duplicate, wherever possible.
Mr Chaytor
364. May I first raise the question that was
raised earlier about the export of certain products abroad because
of lack of capacity to process them there? What do you think about
the impact of the PRN system, because we now have these EPRNs
do we not? It has been put to me that this is actually preventing
the development of the processing of certain products, particularly
plastics, in the UK. Do you agree with that? Have you made representations
about the EPRN system?
(Mr Georgeson) Personally, I do agree with that. We
have not made direct representations on that yet. I had a horrible
feeling that the PRNs and EPRNS might appear today. The packaging
compliance system does not quite seem to have managed to increase
recycling capacity yet in the way that we all hoped it would.
365. It has increased fraud, has it not?
(Mr Georgeson) I would not go that far myself, without
evidence.
366. There is a suspicion that it has increased
fraud?
(Mr Georgeson) Various documents have called it suspicious
and there is also a disconnection between the activities of a
manufacturer or a retailer and their ability to discharge their
obligation to comply with regulations by paying into a compliance
scheme without there being any direct link between their activities
and the increase in recycling. I think this is something which
requires much more fundamental review than is on the agenda right
now, although, as I am sure the Committee knows, the Government's
Better Regulation Task Force is about to start work on examining
producer responsibility legislation with a view, hopefully, to
making it more efficient than it perhaps is right now.
367. Moving on to the question of procurement,
you mentioned earlier than only about 20% of businesses are actively
seeking out recycled materials. In the public sector, the procurement
is worth about £25 billion a year, we understand. Given that
there ought to be a political will, what progress can you report
in persuading Central Government or local government actually
to pursue procurement policies that encourage the development
of recylates?
(Mr Georgeson) The Committee will be aware, I think,
that the Government, through DEFRA, has a Sustainable Procurement
Group, which is charged with setting fresh targets, as the Government
stated, in terms of its ability or desire to buy more recycled
products, amongst many other issues of procurement, in order to
advance the sustainability agenda. Through our Chief Executive,
we have made some representations to that group. We were asked
for some advice before Christmas on that. We are hopeful that
there will be some announcement from Government, from Ministers,
before too long on that, which we hope will set some clear new
targets for the purposes of recycled products. I am not in a position
to go further at this stage. I am not party to the detail. I would
only hope that we not only set targets but that we set alongside
that a plan by which those procurement targets will be achieved
because, without doubt, it has been an area at WRAP which has
been a big challenge. We would say to you that we have not made
as much progress on the procurement agenda as we would like to
have done in the first 18 months. We are very keen to get that
bull by the horns.
368. Do you think Central Government is further
ahead than local government? Are there good examples of local
government setting the pace?
(Mr Georgeson) I would find it difficult to find good
examples in local government. There may well be some but they
have not waved the flag very strongly just yet. What always frustrates
me are the disconnects between the waste management and recycling
side of local government, desperate to meet Government targets,
and the procurement side of local government that does not seem
to want to talk to its waste managers about that and joining up
that thinking there at local level. One could say that Central
Government should do the same thing, and I would agree that we
should see that happen. I would not like to give one group one
goal and the other two goals at this stage.
369. Are there any good examples anywhere of
any organisation in the United Kingdom establishing a positive
procurement policy?
(Mr Georgeson) I am going to say something nice about
the Environment Agency because I believe that the Environment
Agency has made some real progress on procurement and certainly
in recycled paper, including a source of paper locally for reports
that they have produced. It would be worth asking the Environment
Agency for a bit more detail on that. I have not come armed with
that information, I am afraid, but I am aware they have done some
work in that area.
Sue Doughty
370. Going back to the collection of waste for
reprocessing, generally everybody wants kerbside recycling collection.
We heard about this earlier. Is it really the only viable means
of collecting waste and sorting it in practical terms?
(Mr Georgeson) It is not the only viable means. Kerbside
collection is very popular. I think it needs to be extended much
further than it is. There is plenty of evidence that you can make
civic amenity sites perhaps more efficient than they are and we
can learn from some good practice in the UK and in other countries.
I would hesitate to say that kerbside recycling is the answer
for every single household in the United Kingdom, but it is certainly
a big part of the answer for many.
371. Can you give us an example—and you
were talking about the good practice of "bring" sites—and
which ones particularly stand out?
(Mr Georgeson) Recently I saw a presentation from
Essex County Council where they have boosted the performance of
their civic amenity sites and their "bring" sites through
an education programme, an awareness raising programme, and also
by introducing an element of competition across the managers of
the sites, and indeed across individual district councils, to
raise the game. It would be worth examining that one in more detail.
If you will allow me to provide information, I will do so.
Chairman: Thank you both very much indeed.
The Committee suspended from 4.59 pm to 5.13
pm for a division in the House
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