Examination of Witnesses (Questions 380-399)
MR ANDY
MOORE AND
MS JANE
STEPHENSON
WEDNESDAY 5 FEBRUARY 2003
Mr Challen
380. How vulnerable are you to changes in market
conditions? You have said you have survived over the last 20 years.
That may be just part of the inherent structures and the management
of the various organisations that you represent. Does a great
deal of your funding come from the sale of recycled materials?
I am not quite sure how it operates. Is it mainly from grants
and funds from local authorities?
(Mr Moore) Yes, it is a mix. Yes, a lot of it is local
authority contracting. There are some grants, particularly around
the work that we pride ourselves on doing innovatively, so a lot
of that is grant funded. The sale of materials is part of the
funding but it is only a relatively small part. In terms of how
sustainable we are, yes, that is quite correct. We have been running
for 20 years through a number of variable market conditions, including
large slumps in the price of paper, for example, which is a key
material when you are doing separated kerbside collections. These
days, the sector is reasonably large and we are able generally
to market the material collectively. Our members together are
the biggest single supplier to the Aylsford Mill, the biggest
single supplier of steel cans to CORUS, etc. Those markets have
become very well established over time. No, we are not that vulnerable
and certainly no more vulnerable than anybody else.
381. How do your costs compare to the local
authority disposal costs in terms of collection and disposal?
(Ms Stephenson) It depends in the same way as the
waste management companies operate. Sometimes, it will be slightly
more than the combination of waste collection and disposal costs.
That goes back to the fact that landfill is too cheap in this
country and we need to do something about addressing those fundamental,
economic parameters that we work with.
382. Do you argue in favour of deposit schemes
for cans, bottles and so on?
(Mr Moore) Yes, we certainly would in as much as we
have a policy role. Mr Owen Jones was asking WRAP a question earlier
about following European practice. When we have been making those
kind of comparisons, you look particularly at a lot of European
figures and others and they are starting 10% higher in terms of
waste diversion than we are because they have deposit schemes
already. Containing deposit legislation for us should be an intrinsic
part of any sensible strategy nationally.
383. Is it the best method to try to get the
householder to sort stuff out in the first place without any incentive?
If you are not particularly green or environmentally minded, you
just chuck it all into the same bin.
(Mr Moore) There are a number of reasons why it is
the best method. One is the proximity principle. It should be
dealt with—ie, sorted—and that is the least the householder
can do. Also, the polluter pays principle. Variable charging is
a debate to be had but the polluter should at least sort if they
cannot pay. There is a point about quality of materials which
we just discussed with reference to compactor vehicles.
We get the best quality of materials and acceptable
ones to the consumers. If we are in a competitive situation, those
who can supply the best materials are going to be those who retain
their outlets when there is any kind of squeeze. Most importantly,
we have to educate people. You can show them and do various things
but ultimately making them do something once a week—ie,
sort those materials for which they should be taking responsibility
to the best possible degree they can—is surely the best
way into their awareness about their own waste stream, which for
many people is the most visible manifestation they have of their
impact on the environment.
384. Have you noticed any change in attitude
from the public where you operate in favour or against what you
are asking them to do?
(Ms Stephenson) Definitely in favour. What they do
sometimes ask for is more information. That goes back to the comment
I made earlier about needing to back up any schemes we have with
awareness raising exercises and public information. Very often,
the local authority provides the funding service but there is
no publicity budget. Then they complain when there is not enough
take-up but you have to have all these things together. What we
have started doing a lot more now is not just relying on public
information sheets and so on but actually going round and talking
to people. Very often, that has quite a significant effect but
obviously it takes time and resources if we are talking about
sending staff members out to talk to people.
(Mr Moore) You have to treat people like they are
intelligent human beings capable of taking complex moral decisions
and you have to guide them in that. It is a slow but ultimately
rewarding process. Our view is that waste, as we are talking about
it in this context, is a social issue far more than a technical
one and that infrastructure needs to be built in at least as much
a social manner as in terms of kit and what truck you are going
to use etc.
385. This might be misinterpreted as a class
based question but do you find that there are different attitudes
depending on housing type?
(Ms Stephenson) Yes, definitely.
386. Have you found different ways of dealing
with that?
(Ms Stephenson) Yes. One of the programmes that we
are involved in is working with local people and setting up local
waste action groups in different communities. Part of the rationale
for that was trying to recognise in different areas that people
have different priorities. For example, in an area where there
is lots of gardening there is likely to be lots of interest in
what people do with garden waste, setting up community shredding
events and that sort of thing. In other areas, the priorities
will be different. Also, what you do have to bear in mind is that
different types of socio-economic groups generate different types
of waste. You will probably get more newspapers and wine bottles
in a middle class type of area. They are the heavy materials which
are being targeted often; whereas you might have a predominance
of plastic bottles in different areas and they are more problematic
at the moment to collect. It does not always neatly break down
into housing type. Very often, it can be how stable the population
is, what the age of the population is. There are lots of different
factors which need to be borne in mind. Even within one big public
housing estate you get pockets where there is very high participation
and other areas where it is very low.
387. Houses in multiple occupation might be
more problematic.
(Ms Stephenson) There are types of housing where a
kerbside scheme is not necessarily suitable. What we tend to have
there are mini-recycling centres, big wheelie bins for different
materials. Obviously, multi-occupancy dwellings are more difficult
to service through a box or wheelie bin system.
Sue Doughty
388. You mentioned collecting weekly. Do you
have a view about collecting weekly or fortnightly in terms of
effectiveness?
(Mr Moore) Yes. There have been different studies
and in different situations weekly or fortnightly is found to
be best in some cases. Clearly, people have been quite successful
with fortnightly collections.
Chairman
389. Weekly is best?
(Mr Moore) Generally but some people have been successful
with fortnightly ones.
(Ms Stephenson) But less successful. The problem with
a fortnightly collection is that it is very easy to forget where
you are in the cycle. In Bristol and other areas around Bristol,
we started off with monthly collections, fortnightly and weekly
and we discovered that people found the fortnightly collection
more difficult than a monthly. With a fortnightly collection,
if you miss a week or go for a holiday, you do not know where
you are. Weekly is definitely better.
Sue Doughty
390. Turning to funding, has the funding that
the Government allocated to the community sector in 2001 now been
distributed through the new opportunities fund?
(Mr Moore) We have launched the fund about a week
last Monday. The distribution will start this spring. The answer
is no, it has not. It is arguably a year late in arriving.
391. What was the delay?
(Mr Moore) A combination of things. As far as we are
concerned, we are ultimately now subcontractors from the Royal
Society for Nature Conservation. They were contractors to award
partners. I think you have to address that question to the new
opportunities fund.
392. Is there any other support that your sector
receives from the Government?
(Mr Moore) There is some money from the environmental
action fund. There are one or two other pots. We have been in
receipt of the landfill tax credit until recently, although that
was under the private scheme. We are looking forward to hearing
how that might be divvied up in the next budget.
(Ms Stephenson) Increasingly as well, our sector is
winning contracts with local authorities so we are getting money
commercially. We are competing with the commercial world in this
work. Our money increasingly comes from a more diverse range of
partners.
393. Does that mean you are having to spend
more time seeking out moneys?
(Ms Stephenson) We have always had to do that. It
is much healthier to have a spread of income streams than to rely
on one source. That will be the problem with some of the groups
that have become totally reliant upon landfill tax credit schemes.
They are obviously very vulnerable.
(Mr Moore) It is an every day reality for NGOs like
us to have to seek funding but it could always be made easier
and the easier it is the more time we have to spend on the main
subject matter.
394. Are there any lessons that we can learn
from your members' experience in handling domestic waste to improve
recovery and reprocessing of industrial and commercial waste?
(Mr Moore) A good question. I think
the industrial and commercial sector, a bit like local authorities,
needs to get some more experience in terms of waste reduction
and diversion. One of the things we have been talking about in
local authorities is that we need some higher and brighter beacons.
We need some local authorities who are achieving European type
diversion rates such that people can not say, "That is elsewhere."
The same is true in the commercial and industrial sector. We need
to see some corporate entities who are achieving good examples
of waste reduction. There was a question earlier about how the
public sector could lead in its procurement policies, for example.
One of the points that we were discussing on the way here was
the fact that the commercial and industrial sector does not look
to the public sector for guidance in its procurement policy, its
waste reduction or its environmental policies in general. It needs
to look to peer groups. If there is a single thing that is worth
mentioning, that is it.
(Ms Stephenson) Our sector does have some experience.
Our sector runs waste minimisation clubs for SMEs and a whole
range of issues up and down the country so there is some experience
there which could be built on.
Chairman
395. You are saying that the private sector
organisations look to other private sector organisations for their
peer groups, not to public examples.
(Mr Moore) I think so and common sense would indicate
that that is most likely to be the case.
396. A lot of effort is going into persuading
the Government that they should set an example. Your implication
is that it is a waste of time.
(Ms Stephenson) We feel that the Government should
be setting an example but I do not think we can rely on that as
being the only mechanism for getting everyone else to do it.
397. It is not a mechanism at all really as
far as most private sector organisations are concerned.
(Mr Moore) It is still a good thing to do environmentally.
398. You stress that you are very robust and
you obviously have done jolly well and survived through all the
vicissitudes of the last 20 years. Why do you think that is?
(Ms Stephenson) I suppose because our organisations
at their core have an aim to reduce, reuse and recycle waste.
That is what we are about. We are not just flitting into it because
there happens to be some money around at the moment, which you
could argue some groups do.
399. You have a real mission statement?
(Ms Stephenson) Yes.
(Mr Moore) It is written into our memorandum and articles.
(Ms Stephenson) That is why we were set up.
| 
