Select Committee on Environment, Food and Rural Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses(Questions 580-592)

MR ELLIOT MORLEY MP, MR DANIEL INSTONE AND MR STEPHEN REEVES

WEDNESDAY 11 DECEMBER 2002

  580. But when a flood occurs, the situation is out of control, so are you going to integrate policy in that area into the implementation strategy for this Directive?
  (Mr Morley) Yes, we are and we are already giving thought about how we can do that and although the Directive does not, as far as I am aware, focus on flooding as a heading, you cannot ignore the policy implications there, for example, with sewers and that is an issue that we need to address and it is an issue I have been discussing with the regulator in relation to the current price review and investment strategies of the sewage companies. There is how you can apply soft defences, for example, and the benefits you can get from that, salt marsh, shingle, sand and how that fits into your water basin strategy. There are upland water catchment areas, there is run-off, there is the role of drainage, canonisation of watercourses, and also the implications of developments and increased run-off as well which both increases the volumes going through river systems and watercourses and also potential pollutants with the run-offs too, so that also has a read-across into sustainable urban drainage, the development of the role of natural features in flood control and water management. We do have the advantage of course of having this all in one Department now and one responsibility and that does make it easier for us actually to think about these in an integrated way, and all these policy aspects come within my own portfolio.

  581. Are you going to produce a document in due course that shows how that area of policy on flooding is integrated?
  (Mr Morley) It will be part of the policy papers that we are developing and in fact it also did feature in Directing the Flow as well.

Chairman

  582. Minister, we talked at the beginning about the timetable for all of this. If one of the major instruments for dealing with diffuse pollution is going to be the entry-level scheme for farmers and then one of the major instruments for dealing with diffuse pollution from the urban environment is going to be planning policy, then you are, by definition, going to be rolling out the environmental schemes way ahead of the deadlines in this and I cannot see any reason why the planning policy guidance should not be issued well in advance. After all, if we are going to minimise costs by hitting it at the source and if this is a good thing in its own right, because those planning guidelines involve quite a long process of issuing and consultation and the finalisation of planning policy, should that not be getting underway now?
  (Mr Morley) Well, planning policy guidelines already address a lot of these issues because of course the issues of water control and pollution control are important aspects of planning and they are subject to their normal revision and they are being revised now to take into account the impact and the requirements of the Directive, so that is underway now and so that work is in process.

  583. So one of DEFRA's officials is working with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister actually on the process of drawing up guidance on it?
  (Mr Morley) That is correct and it is also part of the coordinated committee which we have as well across government departments, so there is cooperation between our own officials in DEFRA and also planning officials in ODPM, so that work is underway. I think there is a second point which you mentioned as well, the planning and?

  584. The second point was the entry-level schemes.
  (Mr Morley) I would not want to over-emphasise the role of the entry-level schemes in relation to pollution control. I do not think they are a major answer to the issue of pollution run-off from agriculture, but they could have a benefit. For example, it is under development at the present time and we are going to have some trials, some pilot schemes, but as an example you could have some uncultivated areas around watercourses, for example, as part of an entry-level scheme. The whole idea of the entry-level scheme is that it is not a very prescriptive scheme in relation to what it does.

  585. I am aware of that, but I was just following the questioning that Paddy made.
  (Mr Morley) But it could have a role, I quite agree.

  586. But you said it might have a major role, so which is the bit which does?
  (Mr Morley) No, it is agri-environment schemes which could have a major role because you could within the agri-environment schemes actually tailor some stewardship schemes to address the whole issue of pollution run-off. That is not the same as the entry-level scheme because the entry-level scheme will not be very prescriptive and it will not have a lot of restraints on the individual farmer as the concept of it, but then the concept is that you would have the entry level and then you would have higher tiers of stewardship which you could opt to go into. Now, some of those higher tiers could certainly be tailored with a number of objectives, but one of the objectives could possibly deal with pollution.

  587. I think we should be cautious before the trials are going to tell us much. A two-year trial will demonstrate whether they can be done administratively, but it is not going to achieve anything ecologically, to be absolutely honest about it, is it?
  (Mr Morley) Well, I personally believe they will have benefits, but I would not want to overplay it, Chairman, and I would not want to say to the Committee that the entry-level schemes are going to have a huge impact in relation to that.

  588. Are you confident that if things do come out in the wash, as it were, like this little niggle about the requirement to eliminate the presence of mercury, that there are mechanisms within the consultation procedures which can actually enable governments to navigate requirements which need to be interpreted as sort of commonsense objectives rather than absolute?
  (Mr Morley) Yes, there is, I think to use the word "discretion" is perhaps not the right word, but there is certainly some flexibility about how we approach this.

  589. Finally, you mentioned European passant earlier on that DEFRA's response to the Food and Farming Commission was being launched today. Did I hear that correctly?
  (Mr Morley) Tomorrow.

  590. That preempts my question because I was wondering why we were going to have a major debate tomorrow if you were going to launch that today.
  (Mr Morley) That is absolutely right.

  591. Well, I am delighted that we can end on that note of consensus. Is there anything you want to say in a final burst?
  (Mr Morley) I would just make the point that this really is a major Directive and of course it is very complex because of the whole aspects of it. I believe that the scrutiny that the Committee is giving this is actually very helpful as part of the process because it is identifying areas that we need to address and areas that we need to work on and I just want to assure you, Chairman, that we will respond positively in relation to the input that the Committee is having because it is part of that process. The final point I would make is that I do believe that this framework will provide a range of really very desirable benefits in relation to water quality and water management and it does fit in with the work we have been doing on strategy and Directing the Flow, biodiversity, planning, sustainable urban drainage. It does bring it all together and I think in that sense it is very desirable, but of course I do recognise that it is important we get it right and it is important we address a lot of the issues that you have raised today.

  592. Well, thank you for that. Without preempting the report, I think we are likely to want to focus on where we think there are practical questions, firstly, in the process, but also which need to be answered so that the various stakeholders can actually deliver, so your attention to those would be very welcome and we can maintain a dialogue on something, the whole thrust of which, I think everybody probably agrees, is something which is desirable. We will see and thank you very much for being with us today. I hope you have not caught pneumonia!
  (Mr Morley) Thank you, Chairman. The discussion was warmer than the room, I must say!


 
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