Examination of Witnesses(Questions 580-592)
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY MP, MR
DANIEL INSTONE
AND MR
STEPHEN REEVES
WEDNESDAY 11 DECEMBER 2002
580. But when a flood occurs, the situation
is out of control, so are you going to integrate policy in that
area into the implementation strategy for this Directive?
(Mr Morley) Yes, we are and we are already giving
thought about how we can do that and although the Directive does
not, as far as I am aware, focus on flooding as a heading, you
cannot ignore the policy implications there, for example, with
sewers and that is an issue that we need to address and it is
an issue I have been discussing with the regulator in relation
to the current price review and investment strategies of the sewage
companies. There is how you can apply soft defences, for example,
and the benefits you can get from that, salt marsh, shingle, sand
and how that fits into your water basin strategy. There are upland
water catchment areas, there is run-off, there is the role of
drainage, canonisation of watercourses, and also the implications
of developments and increased run-off as well which both increases
the volumes going through river systems and watercourses and also
potential pollutants with the run-offs too, so that also has a
read-across into sustainable urban drainage, the development of
the role of natural features in flood control and water management.
We do have the advantage of course of having this all in one Department
now and one responsibility and that does make it easier for us
actually to think about these in an integrated way, and all these
policy aspects come within my own portfolio.
581. Are you going to produce a document in
due course that shows how that area of policy on flooding is integrated?
(Mr Morley) It will be part of the policy papers that
we are developing and in fact it also did feature in Directing
the Flow as well.
Chairman
582. Minister, we talked at the beginning about
the timetable for all of this. If one of the major instruments
for dealing with diffuse pollution is going to be the entry-level
scheme for farmers and then one of the major instruments for dealing
with diffuse pollution from the urban environment is going to
be planning policy, then you are, by definition, going to be rolling
out the environmental schemes way ahead of the deadlines in this
and I cannot see any reason why the planning policy guidance should
not be issued well in advance. After all, if we are going to minimise
costs by hitting it at the source and if this is a good thing
in its own right, because those planning guidelines involve quite
a long process of issuing and consultation and the finalisation
of planning policy, should that not be getting underway now?
(Mr Morley) Well, planning policy guidelines already
address a lot of these issues because of course the issues of
water control and pollution control are important aspects of planning
and they are subject to their normal revision and they are being
revised now to take into account the impact and the requirements
of the Directive, so that is underway now and so that work is
in process.
583. So one of DEFRA's officials is working
with the Office of the Deputy Prime Minister actually on the process
of drawing up guidance on it?
(Mr Morley) That is correct and it is also part of
the coordinated committee which we have as well across government
departments, so there is cooperation between our own officials
in DEFRA and also planning officials in ODPM, so that work is
underway. I think there is a second point which you mentioned
as well, the planning and?
584. The second point was the entry-level schemes.
(Mr Morley) I would not want to over-emphasise the
role of the entry-level schemes in relation to pollution control.
I do not think they are a major answer to the issue of pollution
run-off from agriculture, but they could have a benefit. For example,
it is under development at the present time and we are going to
have some trials, some pilot schemes, but as an example you could
have some uncultivated areas around watercourses, for example,
as part of an entry-level scheme. The whole idea of the entry-level
scheme is that it is not a very prescriptive scheme in relation
to what it does.
585. I am aware of that, but I was just following
the questioning that Paddy made.
(Mr Morley) But it could have a role, I quite agree.
586. But you said it might have a major role,
so which is the bit which does?
(Mr Morley) No, it is agri-environment schemes which
could have a major role because you could within the agri-environment
schemes actually tailor some stewardship schemes to address the
whole issue of pollution run-off. That is not the same as the
entry-level scheme because the entry-level scheme will not be
very prescriptive and it will not have a lot of restraints on
the individual farmer as the concept of it, but then the concept
is that you would have the entry level and then you would have
higher tiers of stewardship which you could opt to go into. Now,
some of those higher tiers could certainly be tailored with a
number of objectives, but one of the objectives could possibly
deal with pollution.
587. I think we should be cautious before the
trials are going to tell us much. A two-year trial will demonstrate
whether they can be done administratively, but it is not going
to achieve anything ecologically, to be absolutely honest about
it, is it?
(Mr Morley) Well, I personally believe they will have
benefits, but I would not want to overplay it, Chairman, and I
would not want to say to the Committee that the entry-level schemes
are going to have a huge impact in relation to that.
588. Are you confident that if things do come
out in the wash, as it were, like this little niggle about the
requirement to eliminate the presence of mercury, that there are
mechanisms within the consultation procedures which can actually
enable governments to navigate requirements which need to be interpreted
as sort of commonsense objectives rather than absolute?
(Mr Morley) Yes, there is, I think to use the word
"discretion" is perhaps not the right word, but there
is certainly some flexibility about how we approach this.
589. Finally, you mentioned European passant
earlier on that DEFRA's response to the Food and Farming Commission
was being launched today. Did I hear that correctly?
(Mr Morley) Tomorrow.
590. That preempts my question because I was
wondering why we were going to have a major debate tomorrow if
you were going to launch that today.
(Mr Morley) That is absolutely right.
591. Well, I am delighted that we can end on
that note of consensus. Is there anything you want to say in a
final burst?
(Mr Morley) I would just make the point that this
really is a major Directive and of course it is very complex because
of the whole aspects of it. I believe that the scrutiny that the
Committee is giving this is actually very helpful as part of the
process because it is identifying areas that we need to address
and areas that we need to work on and I just want to assure you,
Chairman, that we will respond positively in relation to the input
that the Committee is having because it is part of that process.
The final point I would make is that I do believe that this framework
will provide a range of really very desirable benefits in relation
to water quality and water management and it does fit in with
the work we have been doing on strategy and Directing the Flow,
biodiversity, planning, sustainable urban drainage. It does bring
it all together and I think in that sense it is very desirable,
but of course I do recognise that it is important we get it right
and it is important we address a lot of the issues that you have
raised today.
592. Well, thank you for that. Without preempting
the report, I think we are likely to want to focus on where we
think there are practical questions, firstly, in the process,
but also which need to be answered so that the various stakeholders
can actually deliver, so your attention to those would be very
welcome and we can maintain a dialogue on something, the whole
thrust of which, I think everybody probably agrees, is something
which is desirable. We will see and thank you very much for being
with us today. I hope you have not caught pneumonia!
(Mr Morley) Thank you, Chairman. The discussion was
warmer than the room, I must say!
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