Examination of Witnesses(Question 60-76)
MONDAY 3 FEBRUARY 2003
RT HON
ALUN MICHAEL
MP, MS SUSAN
CARTER, MS
PAM WARHURST
AND MR
ROGER WARD
60. Right.
(Ms Warhurst) It is not all about new money, is what
I am saying.
Chairman
61. Let us pursue this a bit more, Nick Barrett
said he was hoping you were going to have a bag of money and people
would bid in for access points, for information, for management.
What you are saying to us, Pam, tell me if I have this wrong,
is there are lots of existing resources out there, you want to
have a good look at the best use of those existing resources and
if there is a funding gap maybe there will be further discussions
then?
(Ms Warhurst) We need to get that balance right. At
this moment in time you would have to ask the Minister if there
is more funding.
(Alun Michael) I was going to try and draw the distinction
between some of the different responsibilities, clearly as far
as access is concerned local authorities have existing responsibilities.
We have provided additional money through the local authority
grant settlement for local authorities to undertake this work.
I wrote to all of the local authorities to point out that money
was available and the nature of the new responsibilities. We did
have some local authorities writing back saying, "When is
the cheque going to arrive?" which is a basic misunderstanding
of the settlement between central and local government. Of course
that is provided through the grant settlement. As a matter of
interest I raised the way that we have done this with all four
leaders of the political groupings on the Local Government Association
and all four of them confirmed the way we have done it is the
way they believe is right, it is not just the LGA but all of the
groupings within the LGA that endorse that point. The other thing
is as far as the national parks are concerned we have taken account
of the regional roll-out proposals that we mentioned earlier,
which you asked about, about the resources. We have given additional
money this coming financial year to all of the national parks
to prepare the ground for this work, with most—£400k
each—for the Lake District, Peak District and Yorkshire
Dales because of regional rollout.
62. Taking that forward, there is money fed
into the grant distribution system through the SSA for CRoW, I
have seen a figure for this but I have forgotten what it is, perhaps
Susan is going to remind me?
(Ms Carter) £12 to £19 million has gone
in for new statutory duties, that is an annual figure.
(Alun Michael) That figure was given at the time of
the legislation.
(Ms Carter) That is for all of their new statutory
duties, for access forums and for the Rights of Way duties in
Part II.
63. This is the point I wanted to get to, I
think you heard me talking with the Ramblers' Association on this,
local authorities have existing statutory duties towards rights
of way and presumably through the grants settlement the Department
will know how much is within the grant settlement for those existing
statutory duties?
(Alun Michael) What happens is that additional money
is provided for the additional burden. The extension of the responsibility
that arises from the Countryside and Rights of Way Act is what
has to be funded in addition. Those responsibilities are ones
that have always been there for local authorities.
64. I agree.
(Alun Michael) There is a mixture. This came under
scrutiny at the time when footpaths were being reopened following
foot and mouth disease and it was striking that many local authorities
took those responsibilities of opening up access very seriously
indeed and moved very quickly, others were a bit slower.
65. What you are telling me is that an extra
£12-£19 million has gone into the grant settlement.
(Ms Carter) Between £12 and £19 million.
The support grant is done in a rather complex way.
66. I have learned this to my cost over many
years.
(Ms Carter) It is somewhere between £12 million
and £19 million, and it was fully funded.
67. Presumably prior to CRoW within the existing
grant settlement there was some money in there for the recognition
of the duties of the local authorities.
(Alun Michael) It would not be ring-fenced money.
It is really for determination by the local authority of the needs
of the area. I would underline the fact of the importance of the
fulfilment of those responsibilities, not just in terms of meeting
expectations but also in terms of the economy and the confidence
and general health. There is some very good work in some parts
of the country not only by local authorities but by parish and
town councils in terms of completing access around areas and voluntary
agreements which go on top of the statutory requirements.
68. That is exactly the point you made earlier
on, in the rights of way network farmers and landowners suffered
but the wider economy suffered tremendously. What I am trying
to get to is when I walk in Nottinghamshire or more particularly
when I walk in North Yorkshire and the paths are a mess and I
say to the rights of way section in North Yorkshire, "How
much are you spending on rights of way?" They say, "We
do not know". There are some good local authorities and there
are some that are not performing as well. If we knew how much
money allegedly they had we could challenge them on it
(Alun Michael) That is very difficult when you think
of the variations in the nature of access problems in different
parts of the area. During the course of the last year or so I
have visited every one of the national parks and the problems
of access in the Peak District, where there are centres of population,
complex geography and settlements compared with the Northumberland
National Park where, by and large, there is a very tight boundary
and within that boundary you have a lot of open countryside the
issues to be handled are very different. Whereas encouraging all
authorities to do as much work as makes sense for the type of
access challenges they have, bench-marking, whereas it is not
impossible, would not be straightforward.
Chairman: Okay.
Mr Wiggin
69. From what I have understood the resources
that are available it is a bit of a movable feast with what is
there at the moment and with what might be. I do not understand
why you did not fully develop the restriction system before deciding
to open the new rights of access in the two regions in 2004?
(Alun Michael) I think the first thing to say is that
the CRoW Act is a very complex piece of legislation. I share your
wish to see things done earlier. Susan and I speak about this
fairly frequently, one has to acknowledge that there is an enormous
amount of pressure on our policy officials and lawyers in fulfilling
the requirements of the countryside and rights of way for the
very reason that it is a balanced piece of legislation.
(Ms Carter) The restrictions will be in place before
the right of access comes in. There is no question of us allowing
the access before the restrictions are in place.
(Alun Michael) If time had been put into preparing
those early then time would not have been put into preparing other
bits of legislation. There is a lot of secondary legislation required.
70. I appreciated that. One of the problems
is there is a temptation to overlook this and simply say well,
visitor information on entry points, managing paths and vegetation
we will leave that to the land owner. There is a resource issue
here and it is not resolved at all by all accounts.
(Ms Warhurst) From the word go we recognised this
to be a fact, it was a huge task and we had to do things in a
sensible and logical manner, we had to get on with the mapping,
we had to make sure the consultation was right, and so on. The
Countryside Agency and the Access Forum have always said there
is going to be a figure attached to this in terms of resources
in order to make this work correctly. What we are saying is at
some point, and we do not know when, we need to say, "What
are you doing? What can we learn from each other? What funds are
you already putting into the National Trust, the LGA or the national
parks ?" There is existing money in the pot. There is a discussion
tomorrow in Newcastle with the National Access Forum. You need
to understand the scale of the operation. You need to understand
what information needs to be put on the ground or on the Internet
and then we need to, having identified the scale of that, see
what existing monies might have be used and then take a view about
where the gaps are. It is just about working through a process.
71. One of the problems is, and I hope you will
clarify this for me, this is extra. Whatever existing pots of
money there are at the moment are probably already been used,
this is an extra level of commitment from landowners, is it not?
(Ms Warhurst) Yes, it is. The Minister has already
indicated that in terms of economic regeneration and the tourist
industry it is not just about there will be no benefits to society
at large and therefore we need a great big cheque, it is about
looking creatively at what there is.
72. To something like the National Trust that
makes perfect sense because it is a big organisation and they
have huge commitments as well as resources, to somebody who has
to cut the brambles back that does not cut much ice, does it?
(Alun Michael) It is also in the interests of landowners
to be working with the other interests. If I revert to an example
I mentioned earlier, a landowner closing off access to something
that will be likely to be opened up under the processes that are
been gone through at the moment, that loss of voluntary arrangement
was felt very strongly by the people like the Ramblers' Association,
the British Mountaineering Council, and so on, and the end result
was a good deal of discussion about how to deal with it, consequent
agreement on managing that, more responsible approaches, publicity
to members to do so in a positive way, and people talk on both
sides of the equation very positively about that. What the new
legislation does not do is take away the need for people to get
together, to listen to each other and to act responsibly, which
in the long term is to the benefit of everybody, including the
landowner who has access on to his land.
73. Earlier on when I was talking to the Ramblers
I went through the list of restrictions and I asked them whether
they felt that bio-security and animal welfare might be useful
extra restrictions, what are your feelings on that?
(Alun Michael) The arrangements that are in place
I think are the range of restrictions that are necessary and they
will be dealt with in the implementation. I am not sure what is
meant by that. In terms of bio-security there are arrangements
under existing legislation, if you are thinking of the protection
of SSSIs, access and things like that. I am not sure what you
are referring to.
74. For me bio-security is more to do with animal
diseases.
(Alun Michael) I thought you said bio-diversity. Bio-security,
we have the protections which we used in terms of foot and mouth
disease. I think bio-security is important but it is actually
more to do with those working with animals than about walkers.
There was a lot of talk about walkers during foot and mouth disease
but there is no evidence that any spread of foot and mouth disease
took place as a result of anybody walking. It is actually contact
between people working with different groups of animals, and things
like that, that raise the serious issues of bio-security, so it
is farmers or people moving from farm to farm.
75. I think that is quite a dangerous quote.
I am on a statutory instrument on pig and cattle welfare tomorrow
and there is a huge amount of emphasis from the Government on
things like scrubbing your boots—
(Alun Michael) Absolutely. During the period of vulnerability
of foot and mouth disease people were expected to observe that
when they went on to the hills, to wash your boots between visits,
et cetera, so it is important to involve the basics. I am just
making the point that the walkers are not really the problem in
terms of threats to bio-security.
Chairman
76. I am conscious, Minister, you have given
us more time than originally planned. Before you go I think the
Committee wants to get a handle on financing. You told us, Susan,
£12 to £19 million this current year through the grant
distribution system. Pam told us there are other pots of money,
funding streams that could be made available to fund this. I have
a suspicion that lurking somewhere in the grant distribution system
is a notional sum of money that local authorities are allocated
through that system to do their existing rights of way, it would
be helpful if you could list out a little note for us.
(Alun Michael) I would be very happy to provide a
note on this. All I can say is that the finances that are contributed
as a stream through Defra are not notional, they go out from our
budget in terms of the increased grant to the national parks for
their access responsibilities, into the local government pool,
in terms of their access responsibilities to the Agency as part
of the on-going discussions of making sure they are resourced
to do their important job properly.
Chairman: That is the point, we want to see
it delivered on the ground. Thank you very much, Alun, and thank
you to the rest of the team.
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