Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-251)
TUESDAY 8 APRIL 2003
RT HON
ALUN MICHAEL
MP AND MR
STEPHEN TWIGG
MP
Chairman
240. Before you answer, I am aware that Alun
has to go. If, Stephen, you would be prepared to stay to the end,
that would be most helpful. Maybe the question which David asked,
if you had a view on that question, you could possibly do it in
writing to us.
(Alun Michael) I could just give one
sentence which is that when issues have been raised, as was raised
by one high school, Settle High School, when they were looking
for specialist status and found that the rules were a bit difficult
for them, we were able to talk to colleagues and there was a ready
willingness to say, "Is there a different way of doing it?
Is it possible to recognise the rural dimension?" That is
the important thing because you will not be able to do that on
everything. There are some situations where the mainstream department
would have to say, "We're sorry. There are reasons why we
can't be flexible", but it is the willingness to look and
say, "Is there something different? Is there something that
could be done in a fairer or more practical way?" which,
I think, is a major development and one which we very much welcome.
241. Well, thank you very much, Minister. (Mr
Twigg) I think David raises a fair point and it is one which
was raised at the first meeting of the Rural Schools Group. Interestingly,
if you look at the pattern of specialist schools, the proportion
of rural secondary schools that are specialist is pretty much
identical to the general proportion at about 22%, so there is
a consistency there. Clearly one of the functions of specialist
schools is for them to collaborate with one another and there
are geographical issues, such as the ones you have outlined, David.
I think we do need to look at other ways in which collaboration
can be established possibly with primary schools, possibly looking
at other providers of 14 to 19 or post-16 education in an area,
but also using the Internet, using other forms of technology as
a way of sharing practice between different communities, and I
know that the Lincolnshire Rural Academy which was established
has been quite an innovative way of doing some of that work and
we would encourage more of those sorts of initiatives. The other
thing we have recognised within the Specialist Schools programme
is that for some of the smaller secondary schools, raising the
matched funding can be even tougher than it can be for other schools
and that is why we have set a lower amount for the matched funding
which has to be raised from private sources by those smaller schools,
and we keep that under review.
Mr Borrow
242. If I can come back on that, a specific
point is raised by Tarleton High School which actually raised
the money from parents in a remarkable way and from small local
businesses, but probably the nature of many of the small local
businesses, which were rural, farming-based businesses in that
area, was that they were quite happy to make out the odd cheque
towards the £50,000, but in terms of having the ongoing involvement
with the school, which is more common with large companies in
more urban areas, that was one of the more difficult things to
achieve, and that was the aspect that they found more difficult
rather than necessarily raising the funds. (Mr Twigg)
Clearly it is still a relatively young programme, Specialist Schools,
and we need to learn as we go along from things like that. Yes,
we should continue to have a high expectation, but it needs to
be realistic and if people are making a contribution in cash,
but are not able to make a further commitment, I think we need
to have some flexibility in the programme. The other thing of
course that we have done, announced by Charles Clarke late last
year, is we have now established a further fund to assist those
schools that have difficulty raising the necessary matched funding
and that should be of some assistance to a number of rural schools.
Mr Mitchell
243. Just on the point you were making about
rural considerations and mainstreaming, can you just tell us how
senior the official is within the DfES who is the contact point
with Defra and the Countryside Agency, who it is? (Mr Twigg)
I am not able to tell you that off the top of my head, but I can
certainly write to you with that answer unless someone magically
provides me with a note from behind.
244. Perhaps you could give us a note saying
who it is and what level and what are the responsibilities they
have. (Mr Twigg) It is grade 3.
245. The inspiration has come! (Mr Twigg)
Yes, the inspiration has come.
Chairman
246. Just a couple of questions from me to finish
off. What work has the Department carried out on social exclusion
in rural areas? I know that in my constituency, the Forest of
Dean, we have got rather a substantial SRB bid which is targeted
specifically at young male adolescents and their social exclusion.
What is your Department doing? Is it just having a general policy
on social exclusion or is it something that is very tailored to
social areas where social exclusion is not only lonely and in
isolation because of the sparsity and the nature of the communities,
you are excluded before you even start almost, but there are all
the other things to do with deprivation as well in rural areas
that can cause multi-layering social exclusion? (Mr Twigg)
I think that is an issue I am keen we address in a more systemic
and coherent way across the Department and that is part of the
purpose of the Secretary of State establishing his Rural Education
Task Force and then my establishing specifically the Rural Schools
Group. I think it would be fair to say that within a number of
the programmes that we have as a Department, which are generally
about tackling social exclusion either exclusively or as a major
part of their remit, we are seeking to address particular rural
programmes and most of the programmes we have covered during the
discussion today, Sure Start, Connexions, extended schools. I
think programme by programme we have been getting better—I
am not saying we are perfect by any means—at recognising
that there will be specific effects for rural schools and rural
communities. What I do not think we have done in a fully systematic
way is looked at that right the way across our policy approach
as a Department and I think that is one of the things that we
do want to address as part of the work of the task force and the
Rural Schools Group.
247. And the last one is to do with special
education. I do not think it is unique in Gloucestershire, but
special education needs provision in rural areas is very difficult
partly because of the numbers and partly because of transport
issues. In Gloucestershire there is currently, as I am sure you
are aware, a programme to take and close the area's special schools,
but this is not common. Years ago I was a special education teacher
and I taught in rural areas in Cornwall, Somerset and Gloucestershire
and provision is very difficult. How is your Department dealing
with the problem of meeting the needs of special education within
rural areas other than saying to them you have either to board
or you have to have an horrendous journey in a taxi or a minibus,
which for some very vulnerable children can be a journey of an
hour or an hour and a half in the morning? (Mr Twigg)
I realise that, and one of the things that I think is most striking
is how the nature, quality and availability of services for children
with special educational needs varies enormously between areas
that are otherwise quite similar in character and you have similar
contrasts between different urban areas as you do between different
rural areas. Whilst the precise nature of how schools deliver
services for special educational needs will vary and will be a
matter for a lot of local discussion, clearly there is a framework
within which those schools are operating. We have wanted to make
very clear as a Department that we put great emphasis on inclusion
and the importance of inclusion, but the special schools will
continue to have an important role to play in delivering that
vision of inclusion. It has to be about what is best for the individual
child. I think I would be right in saying that the issue in rural
areas is perhaps particularly pronounced for primary schools sometimes
simply because of the scale, the environment—
248. Sometimes there is no provision at all. (Mr
Twigg) Sometimes there is no provision at all. One of the
ways in which we have been seeking to improve that is to encourage
clusters of primary schools to work together in terms of planning
their special educational needs provision or even to encourage
primary schools and secondary schools nearby to be working together
to share some of those services so that those children for whom
mainstream education is the best option do not end up completely
isolated because they are perhaps the only child with a statement
in a very small primary school, they are able to benefit from
the facilities that may be available through their LEA at another
primary school or secondary school.
249. But for those children that are going to
separate and specialist educational provision the Government has
loads of targets. Is there a target that brings down the journey
time or journey distance that any one child should be expected
to travel by a local authority in order to find the special education
provision that may have been suggested either in their statement
or by the educational psychologist or because of their behavioural
and emotional needs? (Mr Twigg) I do not often go to
meetings where I am asked to create more targets, but I am happy
to take that one away.
250. I wondered if there was something in your
mind that you would find completely unacceptable. Is it longer
than an hour or longer than 50 miles or whatever, because I am
sure there are instances in some of the rural areas of Lincolnshire,
Yorkshire, Cornwall and Gloucestershire where we are expecting
children to travel a huge journey in order to get the education
that we are meant to be providing for them? (Mr Twigg)
Clearly there is a trade off between a long travel period versus
access to the best quality provision. I am a bit wary of speculating
about setting a maximum figure off the top of my head as to what
would be reasonable either in terms of distance or in terms of
time, but I am sure that there are examples that you could cite
and other members of the Committee could cite of unacceptable
situations and I think, if it is okay, I would like to take that
back into the Department and talk to my colleague, Cathy Ashton,
who leads on special education needs and also to ensure that it
informs some of our continuing work with rural schools.
RT HON
ALUN MICHAEL
MP AND MR
STEPHEN TWIGG
MP
251. Thank you. Stephen, it has been a delight
to have somebody from another department, it gives us a different
perspective. Thank you very much for your contribution this afternoon. (Mr
Twigg) Thank you very much.
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