Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
Monday 9 June 2003
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY, MR
JIM SCUDAMORE
AND MR
MARTIN ATKINSON
Q80 Chairman: Good afternoon, ladies
and gentlemen. Minister, thank you very much for coming and giving
evidence. You are a regular and much-welcomed attender at our
meetings. May I thank you and your colleagues for your patience
in delaying the start of this afternoon's session but I think
colleagues wanted to be in the chamber until the conclusion of
the opening exchanges on the single currency announcement. In
addition to the Minister we have Jim Scudamore, the Chief Veterinary
Officer, and Martin Atkinson, the Director of the State Veterinary
Service. You are all very welcome indeed. I would just like to
start my opening remarks by saying this: in my post today there
was a letter sent to me by a practice of veterinary surgeons in
Lancashire, sending a letter which has been distributed not in
that practice but to some 250 farms who were the customers of
another veterinary practice illustrating the problems being faced
by veterinarians in delivering good large animal practice. Because
of the problems they are facing this letter has gone out which
says, "Our new assistants can't get the experience [large
animal work] because we don't have the volume of work and quite
naturally you don't want them `practising' on your livestock.
It has become common now in larger Veterinary Practices for a
division into Farm animal, Equine and Small animal. We unfortunately
are not big enough to do that and I can't do all the farm work
alone". I do not think that practice, in sending that message
out to its clients, its farmers and others, is unique. I am interested
to know, therefore, what your assessment is of that because I
think it is typical of some of the other evidence we have heard
from those organisations who represent veterinary interests about
the state of large animal work in the field of veterinary practice,
and I might ask in that context what assessment your Department,
Minister, has made, of the impact of the declining use of veterinary
surgeons by livestock farmers on animal health, because it is
clear that some farmers have said it is an expense that until
there is a real problem we can do without.
Mr Morley: Taking the last point
first, our animal health officers have been carrying out analysis
of veterinary activity in their areas, and they have recently
done a survey on whether they think that veterinary treatment
has gone up or down in relation to livestock farmers and it is
a very mixed picture. It is not across the board. In fact, I was
talking at a meeting of vets in Yorkshire not very long ago where
they were saying that in their particular area, contrary to perception,
they were not having trouble in recruiting people into large animal
practice. But that is not to say that there are not these changes
and these difficulties around the country. It is also quite difficult
to draw an evaluation of what is happening in terms of the interpretation
of figures and spending on veterinary treatment because that is
one of the indicators people use, spending by livestock farmers,
as to whether or not their veterinary treatment is going up or
down, and there is a whole range of reasons why spending may have
decreased. For example, husbandry may have improved so you require
less veterinary treatment; it may be the case that veterinary
medicines have reduced or there have been changes in relation
to the charging patterns; it is also true that, as a general rule,
the larger the practice the bigger the percentage share of veterinary
bills, but in all cases there is still less than, on average,
10% of overall spending on livestock farmers. The biggest increase
in veterinary activity is in the dairy sector and that might reflect
the increase in intensification of dairy and therefore the increasing
need for veterinary treatment. On your first point about attracting
the experience, I was a bit puzzled about that in the sense that
all veterinary students, of course, are given experience across
the range of veterinary treatments, and some of them do start
to specialise at veterinary college in terms of large animals.
They make choices themselves in what they want to do. I did visit
Liverpool University Veterinary College myself and the day I went
there they were all working on large animals—they were doing
work on cows' feet—so there is the part of the training
they have, and I would have thought that getting the experience
is to employ people within a practice, even a smallish one, and
while it is true I suppose, if you have someone not experienced
as other vets there might be a bit of a resistance from farmers,
I think most farmers understand that people have to start somewhere
and they do have to get some on-the-job training. Perhaps Jim
would like to speak on this because he is on the Council of the
RCVS which, of course, is the ruling body for veterinary educational
training.
Mr Scudamore: You have identified
an important issue which is when veterinary students graduate
they have basic competencies, and the question is how they get
additional training. In general, that has been gained in practices
and through extramural studies. The College is very conscious
of that and obviously will comment on this, but there is a strategy
being developed to work out how people graduating after five years
can then get additional expertise to go into large animal, small
animal or equine practice. The possibility is there will be a
system of houseman-type arrangements so they can get the additional
expertise. I think it is recognised that there is a problem, particularly
in the small practices, and the College is looking to develop
a strategy for people to get additional expertise after they graduate
in the first year of graduation.
Q81 Chairman: But, Minister, you
picked up on what is the annex to the note which Defra sent to
the Committee and the survey that was done on practices and large
animals, and I will just read to you from paragraph 17, the conclusion:
"A majority of AHDOs in all five of the SVS Regions report
a decline in the number of practices able to carry out large animal
work although the problems are by no means uniform", and
there is a lot of evidence to indicate that there are other areas
of veterinary practice which are basically not being done. Now,
as you will know from previous evidence sessions particularly
in connection with foot and mouth, and from your own observations
about the importance of increasing biosecurity, are you not worried
about the decline in the availability of these large animal services,
as confirmed by your own survey?
Mr Morley: Yes, it is a matter
of concern, and we cannot ignore these kinds of trends although
the survey confirmed what I say—that it is not a uniform
decline. There is a decline being reported by each of the regions
but it is not uniform, and that means we have to address where
there is a potential problem. I think the reasons for this are
really very complex. Part of it has been the changes in veterinary
practices themselves: at one time, and this is more for the Royal
College to put this point than me, but as I understand it a lot
of suburban practices did both small animals and large animals
and there seems to be a trend away from that; instead of having
mixed practices there seems to be a trend towards specialising.
The suburban practices, the urban fringe practices, seem to be
going towards the small animals and there are less and less people
who are providing the larger animal experience. That does have
knock-on consequences, not least the point you were making, but
the reason I was a bit puzzled is you gave me an example of a
veterinary practice working with large animals but there are lots
that are not, and in those cases people working there would have
little chance of experience because they are not even working
with those animals.
Q82 Chairman: Finally, in the latest
annual report, in chapter 2 there is a pretty significant section
about animal welfare, the challenges it meets and the way we are
going to counteract disease risk. Do you believe we have the veterinary
experience and capacity to meet those challenges or is what you
are doing saying, "Well, I am not certain", therefore
certain action has to be taken to address some of the issues which
may threaten the achievement of the objectives outlined in your
report. Do you discuss this with Mr Scudamore on a regular basis?
Mr Morley: I certainly discuss
this on a regular basis with Jim and we have regular meetings,
but Martin is on the operational side as the Director of the State
Veterinary Service and Jim is on the policy side, and some of
the points you mentioned are operational in terms of the experience
events in identifying threat. It is true that they are only potential
threats but we are aware of that which is why it was identified
in the Defra report. It is part of in-service training and it
is part of the interchange we have within Defra, our State Veterinary
Service, and the private veterinary sector. There is a very close
interrelationship between our State Veterinary Service and the
private sector because, as you will be aware, something like 7,000
private vets that work for Defra as LVIs, so you have to have
that interchange.
Mr Atkinson: I certainly would
endorse the last point. We do see the future built around an improved
relationship, an improved partnership, between the State Veterinary
Service and the vets in private practice. What we might also mention
looking to the future is the work that we are doing on developing
animal health and welfare strategy. One of the key points is to
get the balance right between the function of government and the
private veterinary service and the industry itself. We can all
see that the trends are not going in the right direction and we
need to find a way of recovering the position, but that is going
to be a partnership between all three parties concerned.
Q83 Mr Lazarowicz: Pursuing the issue
of the links between Defra and the universities, we have been
told by the Royal Society in one of their reports that "whereas
the Department of Health has a crucial role in supporting universities
and training medical students and the provision of research, no
government department has an equivalent role with regard to university
veterinary education", and this means, they suggest, "that
the expertise in Defra and the Veterinary Laboratories Agency
is uncoupled from the expertise in the veterinary schools and
if they were brought together through joint funding, it is suggested,
or even if a joint standing committee in education and research
were created, it could do much to improve our national capability
in the surveillance diagnosis and control of infectious diseases
in animals". Do you agree, first of all, with that assertion
and could you tell us a bit more about the way Defra does work
with veterinary schools to ensure that vets are graduating with
the expertise that is required for careers in the State Veterinary
Service, and in large animal practice?
Mr Morley: I do not entirely agree
with that. It is true, of course, that the veterinary schools
are funded completely separately from Defra, that is absolutely
right, but it is fair to say that we have, particularly in recent
years, begun to incorporate some of the veterinary colleges, particularly
in some of our surveillance work that we carry out, and there
was also as part of the follow-up from the foot and mouth inquiries
funding made available to veterinary schools as part of the surveillance
work and as part of the work they do.
Mr Scudamore: We would agree that
we need to work very closely with the veterinary schools and we
have a number of initiatives on the go at the moment. In terms
of working with them we are funding two veterinary investigation
centre type units at London and Liverpool which will be part of
the surveillance network, and we have a major joint programme
with HEFCE and SHEFCE to provide money every year to develop initiatives
on training—
Q84 Chairman: Could you remind us,
for our greater education, what HEFCE is and—what was the
other one?
Mr Scudamore: The Higher Education
Funding Council which is the body that funds the universities,
and they provide the funding to the universities to run the veterinary
schools. SHEFCE is the Scottish Higher Education Funding Council.
Q85 Chairman: Thank you. That is
helpful for those of us who are south of the border!
Mr Scudamore: They are the two
funding bodies for universities and we have a joint initiative
with those bodies to provide £5 million a year to develop
training and research at the universities, so there is quite a
lot going in the terms of links. There are also close links between
the VLA, the Veterinary Laboratory Agency, at Weybridge which
is one of our agencies, and the veterinary schools to work jointly
in areas like pathology and epidemiology, so there are a number
of initiatives where we are working with the universities but
the difference is we do not have the NHS arrangements. The funding
of the veterinary schools is entirely through the Department of
Education, through HEFCE, and our funding is peripheral where
there are specialised areas of work that we want doing.
Mr Morley: They are different
structures in the way they are set up.
Q86 Mr Lazarowicz: Could it not be
extended, or could not the work together be developed in anyway?
You mentioned some initiatives but are there other things happening
besides those or is that the sum total?
Mr Morley: There is regular contact
between the veterinary schools and the State Veterinary Service
and ourselves, and our agencies and laboratories. I think the
principal difference is that, because of the way the Department
of Health fund, they are funding the placement of doctors in hospitals
and institutions as part of the NHS structure and we do not have
an NHS structure for livestock. That is a principal difference
in the way the funding structures are laid out.
Q87 Mr Lazarowicz: What about the
idea following the Royal Society about a joint standing committee
in education and research? Would that be a good idea?
Mr Morley: There is some merit
in that. It is something that could be considered.
Mr Scudamore: I have a number
of points there. There was a research committee set up by the
Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons which provided support to
this initiative we have, the HEFCE and Defra initiative, in respect
of what research was needed and what the priorities should be,
so I think there are already various bodies in place to look at
joint working together. We are also looking within the Department
at scientific advisory groups. A lot of this is going to fall
within the animal health and welfare strategy which is all about
collaborating, working together and having partnerships, so we
are working on a lot of these issues to identify the best partnerships
with the universities, with stakeholders and with practice.
Q88 Mr Lazarowicz: Finally, a specific
point made by the Royal College was the fact that at least four
of the veterinary schools do not have viable farm animal practices
with large caseloads, and have not been able to develop the level
of expertise that now exists in a number of farm animal practices.
Again, would you accept that is the case and, if it is, what plans
do you have to ensure that the veterinary schools have adequate
resources to allow students to undertake large animal work during
their studies?
Mr Morley: Part of that is the
responsibility of the schools in relation to the programmes they
put forward to the funding councils in terms of what they want
to do. I can see that some schools in relation to where they are
based may have difficulties in relation to large animals. A lot
of veterinary students got a lot of experience in the unfortunate
foot and mouth event, of course, where many of the students worked
for us, MAFF and then latterly Defra, and I do not know whether
that is something that can be considered in relation to placements.
Mr Scudamore: We did have a scheme
where we would accept veterinary students to work in the State
Veterinary Service and in the Veterinary Laboratory Agency, because
during their training they have to do extramural studies for a
certain number of months with practices in different environments,
and we need to look at that issue to see whether students can
be placed in animal health offices and in the veterinary laboratory
agencies, and how many can be placed there to get experience.
On the point of the veterinary practices in schools, this really
is an issue of the quality of the training, and that falls to
the RCVS through their visitations to ensure that the schools
can produce vets who have the right training to the right standard,
but equally we do have a part to play and when I mentioned those
initiatives we had, opening up a VI centre type place in London
and Liverpool, the idea is we provide some of the resource, the
university provides other resource, and by doing that material
would come into the laboratory that students could look at. So
I agree that it is important they get experience in large animal
practice, but there are a number of different ways they can get
it—either by the school itself having a practice, or by
going out into practice, or by having placements in different
parts to get different expertise.
Q89 Mr Wiggin: Mr Atkinson mentioned
the consultation on preparing an animal health and welfare strategy
for Great Britain. What sort of level of response have you had?
Mr Morley: It has been a very
good response to the strategy and the stakeholder meetings that
we have had. In fact, I would describe it as an enthusiastic response
as a matter of fact. All sections of the livestock industry feel
that this is a valuable exercise in terms of focusing on a proper
animal health and welfare strategy, bringing together the work
that we have done and also now we can make it more focused for
the future.
Q90 Mr Wiggin: More than under national
fallen stock proposals?
Mr Morley: Fallen stock is a completely
separate issue!
Q91 Mr Wiggin: When will this strategy
be published?
Mr Morley: It would be in the
next month or so.
Mr Scudamore: We are drafting
out the strategy now and we hope to publish in the next month
or so. It will be an interim strategy, and the intention is we
will consult and produce the final version in March next year.
Q92 Mr Wiggin: What steps are you
taking to make sure that farmers do not see this as being imposed
upon them?
Mr Morley: Mainly by making sure
they are fully engaged in the process—as they have been
through their organisations and also the comments we have received.
But I can honestly say that I do not believe the health and welfare
strategy is perceived in that way. The involvement we have had
has been genuine and enthusiastic.
Q93 Chairman: Can I pursue you a
little on this, Minister? We looked a little bit at the question
of the available capacity within the private veterinary profession
to deliver the kind of strategy you are talking about, and in
paragraph 9 of your evidence to the Committee, you say: "Clearly
farmers trust their veterinarians as communicators of animal health
advice. However, one of the major issues is whether farmers and
private veterinarians have the capacity to deliver this desired
outcome through more on farms, perhaps through herd or flock health
and welfare plans". So in your own evidence you cast doubt
on whether there is enough capacity to deliver these plans, and
then you use this wonderful word "perhaps" which suggests
an element of doubt as to how this great strategy is to be delivered.
What are you doing as part of this work to see whether capacity
matches demand, and also the ability for farmers to afford to
be part of it?
Mr Morley: We clearly have to
evaluate capacity as part of any animal health and welfare strategy—both
in relation to ourselves and also within the private sector. That
is part of that. It also involves delivery or potential delivery
of such things as whole herd and flock plans, although I would
say there are a number of assurance schemes that farmers belong
to that already have those schemes in place. On the pig side,
for example, the State Veterinary Service provides some of the
validation of those plans so we believe that you can implement
this approach but it is true that you have to look at the overall
resources available.
Q94 Chairman: You say you have to.
Are you?
Mr Morley: Yes.
Q95 Chairman: And when this plan
is published, will we be able to see the evidence that financial
ability to purchase veterinary services is sufficient from within
the farming community to make this work?
Mr Morley: That is a separate
issue in relation to the ability to purchase the veterinary treatment—
Q96 Chairman: I am not talking about
medicines now.
Mr Morley: No. I understand what
you are saying but the profitability of livestock operations is
an aspect of the health and welfare strategy. It is recognised.
Q97 Chairman: I am not quite certain
what that means because elsewhere in your evidence you talk to
us about plans which will come possibly from within the EU that
will put, if you like, a whole farm hygiene plan—and I do
not want to anticipate David's area of questioning—in place,
and I am still not clear whether we have the resources and the
affordability in place, which with all these requirements are
probably very well meaning and all trundling down the farm track,
to implement them thoroughly or not?
Mr Morley: Affordability is a
matter for the sector in relation to its dealings with livestock
farmers. Profitability for the sector has improved over the last
two years, though I would not want to be complacent about that.
Mr Scudamore: I mentioned that
we are presenting an interim strategy. The intention is that strategy
will summarise what people have said and what they think are the
key objectives of the strategy. We are then working from now through
until next March to produce the final strategy plus a plan on
how we will deliver it, and I think this meeting now is at the
very beginning of that: the discussion on what people want and
what the emerging themes are is what will come out in the next
month. The question of what will be delivered and how it will
be delivered will be for discussion over the next six months which
is why this particular committee meeting at the moment is particularly
appropriate, because one of the issues is we cannot deliver everything
people want.
Q98 Chairman: So we can write in
our report that the farming community should tell Mr Scudamore
and Mr Morley what they can afford against a wish list of what
they would like?
Mr Scudamore: They will be given
the opportunity, as they have been, to comment on the strategy.
Some of these are practical issues which you have identified which
will clearly be at the forefront of many farmers' minds, and they
will be free to comment to us in relation to not only what should
be done but what realistically can be done as well.
Q99 Mr Wiggin: Why did you not use
this methodology when you were doing fallen stock? It seems like
you consulted widely, you have done it all nicely and yet—
Mr Morley: We consulted on fallen
stock for over twelve months.
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