Examination of Witnesses (Questions 80-99)
14 MAY 2003
MR ELLIOT
MORLEY MP AND
MS MANDY
BAILEY
Q80 Paddy Tipping: One of the issues
is that contractors for the scheme fear that they are not going
to get paid. Things are tight in the industry and I have read
reports that renderers are not prepared to enter into long-term
contracts because they fear they will be left with a bad debt.
Mr Morley: That is right.
Q81 Paddy Tipping: But the contractor
is going to be get paid up-front?
Mr Morley: Exactly, because the
subscription is the up-front payment. You pay your subscription
and under the scheme as it stands you do not pay any more once
you have paid that subscription and the animals are taken away.
Q82 Diana Organ: In the implementation
of the scheme you have talked earlier about expecting that there
would be a collection of a carcass within 24 hours in the hope
that the farmer would ring up and they would only have to hold
on to that carcass for a day, 24 hours. What bio-security standards
will be applied while that carcass is being held and what bio-security
standards will be monitored by the contractors that are collecting?
Mr Morley: Generally speaking,
farmers have arrangements now in relation to where they hold fallen
stock depending on the size of the animal and where it is. They
are aware of the need for bio-security. In the same way people
who collect fallen stock now are well aware of the need for bio-security,
and as this would be a contractual arrangement for those people
who will be within the umbrella scheme, one of the things we will
expect to see is a contractual obligation in relation to bio-security
as an integral part of the scheme, and everyone who was a member
of it would be expected contractually to comply with those standards,
which include leak proofing standards relating to vehicles and
everything else.
Q83 Diana Organ: Who will monitor
that they are applying that bio-security?
Mr Morley: There are certain standards
now which we would expect them to comply with in relation to the
spot checks we do for the SVS. The environmental health organisations
and local authorities would have a responsibility as well. There
is an issue of industry management and standards too, because
it is not in their interests to have any member who is not applying
the proper standards. I might say if it is contractual and they
break the contract, they are out of the scheme.
Q84 Diana Organ: If farmers are hanging
on to their carcasses and you are saying you have laid down the
regulations for bio-security, what sort of facilities do you expect
farmers have to store? If you have got a large holding, it may
be more than one animal.
Mr Morley: As I mentioned earlier
on, we would hope this scheme would take animals away in 24 hours.
Q85 Diana Organ: In the height of
the summer that is a long time.
Mr Morley: I think it would be
unrealistic to expect particularly smaller farmers to have specialist
facilities to hold fallen stock. I certainly think it would not
be unreasonable to keep animals away and to have proper bio-security.
Q86 Diana Organ: Minister, can I
just give you a scenario that your fallen stock occurs on a Friday
morning before a Bank Holiday weekend and it cannot be collected
on that Friday, the contractor is not possibly working a rota
of the Bank Holiday weekend, maybe Easter or Christmas, so somebody
is not going to come along until Tuesday mid-morning? You have
to be honest about the reality of the collection.
Mr Morley: They have arrangements,
they do not close down like that because of the nature of business.
Ms Bailey: It is also the benefit
of having a nationally co-ordinated scheme as opposed to something
done purely on a local basis because the way it is envisaged is
that there would be a number of contractors who would be picking
up in a particular geographical location, and therefore if one
of them were not able, for whatever reason, Bank Holiday is what
you have just cited, to do so, that would automatically then be
given to another person so there would be coverage throughout
the entire period.
Q87 Diana Organ: That is given against
the national scheme that you proposed and that we have been talking
about, but, as we have already found out, there has not been a
tremendous take-up from the industry for the scheme.
Mr Morley: So far.
Q88 Diana Organ: And you are doing
your sums and it is not going to be economically viable if there
is a low take-up and if there is no national scheme and it is
therefore local contractors not tied into a national scheme, we
are going to have this problem of a delay of pick-up, are we not?
Mr Morley: This is a choice that
individual farmers must make, bearing in mind of course that some
may have decided to have on-farm incineration or decided to enter
into a collective group, that is going on as well, whereby a group
of farmers may jointly finance an incinerator and therefore it
serves that group of farmers. We have no problem with that. It
is entirely up to them if they want to do that.
Q89 Chairman: It is entirely possible
that a farmer might not know that a sheep has died. We have all
got experience of farmers complaining to us because when they
are required to bring their sheep together in order to get payments,
there have been discrepancies. We all remember in foot and mouth
disease how difficult it was to make sure you got hold of every
sheep on the moor and sheep have an awful habit of keeling over,
putting their legs in the air, and expiring.
Mr Morley: They do.
Mr Wiggin: It is their sole purpose.
Q90 Chairman: For a farmer who is
a perfectly good farmer it might well be three days before he
actually knows.
Mr Morley: I think that is an
example, Chairman, where we do have to have a proportionate and
pragmatic approach, particularly on the uplands. I know these
things go on. I remember very well the 100 unclaimed sheep in
the Forest of Dean, for example, which seemed to be a mystery.
Diana Organ: Shared between many, I am
sure.
Q91 Chairman: They still haunt the
Forest of Dean.
Mr Morley: When they were a problem
apparently they did not belong to anybody but when there was some
money for them there was a lot of—
Diana Organ: When they want to claim
the subsidy they belong to various families but when they are
a problem nobody wants to know.
Chairman: I am told at Halloween you
can still see them coming through the trees.
Diana Organ: Yes, the ghostly sheep.
Q92 Mr Drew: Can we talk about incineration.
Just to put it into some context, have you got any figures? Perhaps
Ms Bailey will elucidate on this. Have you got any figures of
how many dead stock are taken care of by incineration at the moment,
a rough percentage? Are you talking about a small percentage or
a middle sized percentage?
Ms Bailey: I cannot actually give
you the number of stock that are covered by on-farm incinerators
but I can say that there are about 2,500 incinerators that will
have to be inspected and approved under the new Regulation.
Q93 Mr Drew: So these are already
operating?
Ms Bailey: Yes, that are already
operating.
Q94 Mr Drew: Presumably in anticipation
of this some farmers have seen an opportunity here, either for
their own stock or more particularly maybe on the basis of a collective
response. Have you seen a pretty major upsurge in interest in
incineration?
Mr Morley: I think anecdotally
there has been an increase. A lot of the pig and poultry sectors,
for example, have had them for a while because it suits them to
do so. I think there has been an increase in on-site incinerators.
Q95 Mr Drew: So I am a farmer, I
know there is a problem with this and I think "Right, I am
going to get myself an incinerator", what do I have to do?
Mr Morley: You do have to get
a licence, Mandy, do you not?
Ms Bailey: Yes. First of all you
need to get approval.
Q96 Mr Drew: From who? DEFRA?
Ms Bailey: Yes. If you are only
using the incinerator for animal carcasses, for on-farm disposal
of animal carcasses—
Q97 Mr Drew: On-farm?
Ms Bailey: Yes.
Q98 Mr Drew: Not using bodies; not
yet.
Ms Bailey: Then it would be approval
by the State Veterinary Service of DEFRA. Depending on the size
of the incinerator there would also have to be other approvals
under environmental legislation, waste management.
Q99 Mr Drew: Planning?
Ms Bailey: You may need it for
big ones.
Mr Morley: It would have to be
a very big one, a huge one.
Ms Bailey: In some circumstances.
For those that operate at more than 50 kg an hour. Not necessarily
always but for big ones.
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