Examination of Witnesses (Questions 208-219)
MR PETER
ALLENSON, MR
GEORDIE WILCOCK
AND MR
HEATH QUITTENTON
19 JUNE 2003
Q208 Chairman: Mr Allenson, you are
the National Secretary of the RAAWTG.of the TGWU.
Mr Allenson: That is right, yes.
Q209 Chairman: Perhaps you would
each use 60 seconds to say who you are as that would be helpful
to the Committee.
Mr Allenson: I am Peter Allenson.
I am a full-time officer in the Transport and General Workers'
Union and National Secretary for the Rural, Agricultural and Allied
Workers' Trade Group which has responsibility for the poultry
industry all the way through from the rearing of birds to the
processing end of the process. We are based in London here and
this is only my second appearance before a Select Committee.
Q210 Chairman: How many members approximately
do you think you have in the poultry industry?
Mr Allenson: Between 7,000 and
8,000 mainly employed in the processing side of the industry,
but some obviously on the farms and in the intermediary stages
of rearing.
Q211 Chairman: Mr Quittenton?
Mr Quittenton: I am Heath Quittenton.
I have been in the poultry sector as a poultry worker for the
last ten years. I currently work for Bernard Matthews. I am here
representing a National Poultry Workers' Organisation Committee
and that is my reason for being here. It is my first time meeting
with yourselves.
Q212 Chairman: And Mr Wilcock?
Mr Wilcock: I am Geordie Wilcock.
I work for the Grampian Company Food Group. I have been in poultry
for the last ten years and I am a worker representative in the
poultry industry. It is my first time here today.
Q213 Chairman: Well, welcome to all
three of you and thank you very much for giving up your time to
give evidence to the Committee today. This is our final formal
session and we hope that the report will emerge at a relatively
early date. I was interested, when I read your submission, that
almost the first thing you said was that, "Alarm has been
voiced by our membership around the issue regarding imports coming
into the UK from a number of sources". Presumably we are
talking about poultry meat and eggs at this point. What sort of
concerns do your members have and do they express them to you
directly?
Mr Allenson: Yes, they do. My
colleagues may say more in a moment or two about how individual
members of staff experience and voice those concerns to them,
but we have at the national level a Poultry Workers' National
Organising Committee which brings together all of the major companies
or our representatives from those companies in the industry. When
I was appointed as National Secretary, which was approximately
nine months ago, at the first meeting there was some concern expressed
particularly about imports from Thailand at that point. That subsequently
became a real issue for us at Christmas of last year with imports
of turkey meat from Brazil. It was conveyed to us that it was
some 45% cheaper to produce turkey meat in Brazil. Three retailers
last year actually decided to source their frozen turkey supplies
from Brazil and, as a consequence, shortly after, early this year
we actually had the second largest turkey producer in the UK,
Brandons Poultry, going into receivership. Of course we have now
the situation where their Doulton plant in Yorkshire has actually
closed and the other two plants are currently, as I understand
it, looking for buyers to take them on at this point in time.
It is that level of concern that was raised with us and of course
we have contacts with major companies in the industry which similarly
raised those concerns with us. We did actually say to those companies
that one or two of them had interests themselves obviously in
Thailand and indeed in Hungary and elsewhere and we did raise
that with them, but, nevertheless, our members are concerned about
the level of import penetration.
Q214 Chairman: So their concern is
driven by economic factors primarily, or solely? Do they have
any welfare or health concerns or quality concerns?
Mr Allenson: Well, first of all,
of course it is the impact on jobs here in the UK which would
drive the concern, but the concern also was around welfare issues.
Anecdotal evidence was certainly given to us of welfare concerns
in Thailand and Brazil and the illegal use of some drugs, such
as nitrofurans, for example, growth enhancers, and whether in
fact there was sufficient testing of poultry meat imports to pick
up whether in fact any of that poultry meat was tainted with any
of those illegal substances.
Q215 Chairman: The TGWU is looking
for what it calls a `level playing field for the UK industry',
and in part within the EU, so let's look at that for a start.
I am surprised that you observed that the playing field within
the EU is not level. In what way?
Mr Allenson: I think again if
you look at enforcement of standards, if you take nitrofurans,
there has been a recent case where poultry coming in from Portugal,
small amounts though it may be, nevertheless has been found to
contain nitrofurans and of course they have been banned within
the EU for the last six years, so we tend to be very vigilant,
quite rightly, in enforcing regulations. We want to ensure that
certainly that is a level playing field within the EU as well
as it is in a global situation. The RAAWTG's policy in respect
of this situation is clearly that we want to see welfare improvements
and other improvements to ensure consumer confidence in particular
in the industry, but there has to be a balance in making sure
that employment in the industry is also protected and preserved.
Q216 Mr Mitchell: Your argument really
ties in with that of the employers. You are saying here that jobs
are at risk and that is the main factor.
Mr Allenson: Yes, that is certainly
the main factor in our members' minds, but one or two of the arguments
have been around obviously the use of illegal substances in poultry
meat and also the welfare considerations. It is getting a level
playing field on that basis to ensure protection of jobs here.
Q217 Mr Mitchell: I think that is
fair enough. What do you think the effect will be of the proposed
and the recently implemented welfare rules? What effect will they
have on the industry?
Mr Allenson: Well, we have obviously
seen the evidence that has been given to the Committee already
and we would concur with some of that evidence. Quite clearly
there is evidence that that is increasing costs to employers and
that is bound to have two impacts on our members, first of all,
in terms of pay and conditions and, secondly, on total jobs that
are actually available here to the UK. For example, certainly
over the years, we have noticed as a trade union the reduction
in the number of jobs in the egg industry both in respect of egg
production, but also obviously consequently in egg packing. There
have been a number of companies which over the years have not
just come together to form larger companies, but have in fact
actually gone out of business as well.
Q218 Mr Mitchell: Presumably the
pay and conditions in this industry of your members are fairly
squeezed anyway. It is a low-pay industry.
Mr Allenson: They are, yes, and
obviously there is an aspect of retailer influence here because
there are some practices by the retailers which squeeze the margins
that are available in the industry. Of course if the employer
gets squeezed at the top, then our members get squeezed at the
bottom and that is the reality of the situation, so quite clearly
there is an issue about retailer power within this particular
sector as well. There is an issue about Internet bidding for particular
contracts within the industry and certainly they have tremendous
influence not only in raising standards, but in swapping contacts
between processors and doing people out of work as a consequence.
Q219 Mr Mitchell: But in terms of
the usual advice that right-wing economists give to employers
in this situation, like "Cut your costs" and "Squeeze
your workers", that is not an option in an industry which
is as hard pressed as this.
Mr Allenson: I am sorry, I did
not quite understand that.
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