Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-259)
MR PETER
ALLENSON, MR
GEORDIE WILCOCK
AND MR
HEATH QUITTENTON
19 JUNE 2003
Q240 Diana Organ: Is that the same
in your company because we are talking about two experiences?
Mr Quittenton: No, I tend to find
that if anything gets thrown away, that is exactly where it stays.
They have been granted power from the vets of the sites that whatever
they say goes and he will always back them up, so they have full
power with throwing birds away that they feel are not fit for
human consumption.
Q241 Diana Organ: Okay, so the question
I started with was just how rigorous is the surveillance of the
birds as they are going along the line where there is pressure
to get them out and the speed is going? I know that in an abattoir
the animal is bigger and it is going a bit slower, so I just wondered
what your opinion was with that.
Mr Quittenton: We tend to deal
with large birds anyway, so you are looking at 18 to 20 kilos,
hence the line speeds are a lot lower than they are for chickens.
Having said that, it is possible that if the line speed is going
too fast, you could miss something.
Q242 Diana Organ: So with the best
will in the world, and I know you are dealing with turkeys, Mr
Quittenton, and you are dealing with chickens, Mr Wilcock, but
people eat a lot more chicken than they eat turkey.
Mr Quittenton: That is right.
Q243 Mr Wiggin: Obviously in any
factory you are going to get the situation that you have described.
First of all, to the best of your knowledge, if a grower brings
damaged chickens into a factory, there is a penalty, which is
financial, so there is a profitability element to the factory,
so there is no interest from the management of that factory to
produce bad food at the end of it. Equally, they do not want to
pay for bad chickens. Is that fair enough, though you will always
get an anomaly, but by and large that is true, is it not?
Mr Quittenton: Yes.
Q244 Chairman: There are 800 million
chickens a year bred and killed, are there not, two million a
day or more? I live near a large animal abattoir and talk to some
of the people that work there and they acknowledge that their
attitudes to animal welfare over the years are coarsened and they
become rather desensitised. Is that a feature of the attitudes
of your members who work in these plants?
Mr Quittenton: I suppose that
is natural because obviously when you first start seeing animals
being slaughtered, it is a bit of a shock to you if you have never
seen it before, but if it comes to be an everyday thing, then
obviously you are going to get used to it. I tend to find that
the people I have been with, the majority of them have been conscious
about the welfare of the animals. For instance, if a line has
a breakdown and birds have been hanging for more than a few minutes,
then questions will start to be asked, "Why haven't they
been taken off?" They should be taken off by at least six
minutes. That is the longest they can stay on a line if they are
alive. If it has been known for some companies to leave their
birds on there for, say, 15 minutes, then you get the employees
kicking off to their management, saying, "We need to get
these birds off", so we have the employees telling the employers,
"Come on, we need to look after these".
Q245 Mr Wiggin: We have touched on
some of the differences between people working in processing plants
and people working on the day-to-day management of the farm side
and I just wondered if you would like to say anything about that.
We talked about catchers, but actually they are not the people
who are responsible for the day-to-day management of, say, a growing
unit.
Mr Allenson: To be honest, that
is a weak side for us. We have not got many people involved in
the rearing and breeding side. We have membership in the breeding
side, but not necessarily the rearing side, so we are aware of
some of the stockmanship issues, but we really could not say too
much with any great expertise on that subject.
Mr Quittenton: We could give you
a vague account of what goes on, but not an expert one.
Q246 Mr Wiggin: We were talking earlier
about licensing catchers, but I would like to know if you know
what that would cost the industry and really how the egg and broiler
industries manage their training in a similar way, and if you
have any comments on that.
Mr Allenson: Certainly again we
have no idea of the likely cost to the industry that that may
actually bring forward, but we are always mindful of the need
to retain consumer confidence in all of this. Vitally important
too are some of the stories we have heard about the industry and
the practices not necessarily in this country, but abroad, and
of course that impacts on chicken sales and turkey sales here
in the UK, so we are very concerned about that. We have got no
idea of the actual cost, but we do believe that if you had a system
where the individual catchers were certificated and they had a
risk of having that certificate withdrawn should they be found
to be abusing animal welfare standards, then that would do an
awful lot to police the situation, but the employers also have
a role to play because quite clearly they very often introduce
the piecework/bonus systems which drive the system forward. Can
I also say, without returning to a particular argument, that I
still believe, having seen a lot of these factories in operation,
that if worker safety is linked to food standards and also animal
welfare, if you have high line speeds, if you have intensification
of the system, then unfortunately animals do get treated badly
as a consequence.
Q247 Mr Wiggin: Can I ask you one
thing about transport as well because I think this fits in. One
of the proposals, I believe, is that the animals will travel for
the same length of time as the drivers are allowed to drive for
and they will be able to be tracked through the tachograph. Is
that something you would welcome? You will be able actually to
see how long the animals have been in transit by the tacho rather
than just by what people tell you.
Mr Allenson: Yes. I think in many
respects this is not unlike many other areas where there is already
some regulation and standards in place. It is just a matter of
making sure that those standards are enforced and that would certainly
help.
Q248 Mr Borrow: I would like to ask
about working conditions which has come up several times in various
aspects which have been raised. I have read the paper you have
submitted and you have quite obliquely made comments which will
lead a lay person to assume that you are not happy with working
conditions and that there are problems around that. Would you
like to elaborate on the problems that your members have in the
industry?
Mr Allenson: Perhaps I should
start and I am sure on this particular subject my colleagues will
dive in quite quickly. Certainly the intensification of the process
is certainly one area that we have got concerns about. That is
really line speeds which can lead to repetitive strain injuries,
et cetera, those types of issues. It has been a big issue within
the industry, although there has been an awful lot of work which
now has been done in respect of that, and that is a big issue
for us in respect of working conditions. The other one, I have
to say, is pay and conditions themselves because many of the processing
companies now are finding it difficult to recruit people at the
pay rates and conditions of employment that they offer in the
localities that they are. I do not know if this was touched upon
by any of the employers that have given evidence, but certainly
if you look at the major ones within the industry, with a tremendous
number of migrant labour from Portugal, et cetera, from all the
former Eastern Bloc countries, in many respects it touches on
the gangmaster/agency situation that your gangmaster inquiry touched
upon as well, so those are perhaps some of the initial comments,
but I am sure that both Heath and Geordie can elaborate on that.
Mr Quittenton: Naturally the environment
is very harsh anyway with the excessive line speeds, the long
hours you have to work, the fact that the majority of jobs tend
to be in stationary positions and that is where you stay for your
entire shift apart from your teabreaks, unsocial shift patterns
where you tend to find that most poultry units start at six and
continue perhaps through until midnight, and it may not always
be killing, but there is always some sort of production process
going on throughout the whole day and most of them are perhaps
24 hours a day, so you have got very unsocial shift patterns,
long hours of work anyway where it is not unusual to have 12-hour
shifts, and we currently operate a 9½-hour shift, so I do
not think that is good for you, having those hours and conditions.
Climates, where you are producing or cutting the meat, it tends
to be cold, just above one degree, two degrees, so the actual
climate is not very good to work in as well, and it is damp and
wet. If you are talking about the live side of the animals, then
it is the complete opposite, very hot, very dusty and it can cause
chest problems. Other conditions, low pay we have mentioned, we
know about low pay, and it always has been a very low-paid job.
The way things are going we will be just above the minimum wage
come next year. Therefore, you will find that a lot of us have
to work many hours by which to gain a sensible wage. It is not
unusual for people to be doing 60 or 70 hours a week just to try
to maintain an average earning.
Q249 Chairman: What is the typical
male/female mix of staff?
Mr Quittenton: I would say 50:50.
You tend to find that for the live stuff, before slaughter, it
tends to be male, then when you go to evisceration it is 50:50,
then when you go to deboning birds and then producing a fresh
product again that is 50:50. Youngsters tend to be the main source
of employment, but then they come and go. There is a very high
turnover in the industry as a whole. You have heard that we are
bringing in migrant workers because we cannot find enough people
in our areas to fill the positions. Regarding the amount of overtime
we have to do in order to have a liveable wage, as I said, it
is 60/70 hours a week just so that you feel that you can try and
enjoy life in the hours that you have got off. Other harsh conditions,
well, I think that covers me for a bit.
Mr Wilcock: Heath has touched
on one or two points, such as the very long hours just to earn
a decent wage, a 60/70-hour week basically. We have all got families
basically at the plant we work at and we have our other halves
working as well just to try and get a decent standard of life.
As Heath says again, touching on the very bad working conditions,
there is a lot of chlorine in the air in these factories. They
are very boring jobs with a lot of RSI injuries, strains to the
wrists, as anybody who knows about poultry will know. There are
a lot of ethnic workers, foreign migrant workers coming in. Basically
we are just left with our core workforce being English and the
rest are agency, enough people have touched on it, and I think
that is how most of the poultry industry works.
Q250 Mr Borrow: In terms of industrial
relations within the industry, how do the mechanics work for grievances
or if there are health and safety issues which your members wish
to raise? Can they raise them or are there problems around that
with difficulties for members actually raising those sorts of
health and safety issues or grievance issues?
Mr Quittenton: Personally, we
seem to have a very good system. If an employee has a problem,
then normally they would speak to their first level of command,
which would be the line leader or charge hand, and then it would
be followed through from there upwards. If they do not have any
joy going through the management, then they come and see the union
officials and we then go through the channels. Most times you
may not get what you want, but at least you get a reason why and
the grievances are followed through, so I cannot really complain
at that at all. You may not always get the answer you want, but
at least it is followed through.
Mr Allenson: Could I just add
to that because obviously that is in a company where the trade
union is organised and there are procedures in place, representation
available, et cetera, but of course there are some companies which
are not organised. There is also the situation in respect of migrant
labour where what we are trying to do as a trade union is to get
those people organised to try and make sure that they are represented
properly, that they are treated fairly and equally and also do
not undermine the pay and conditions that are already there, poor
as they may be, so it is very important to us that people do have
some protection in terms of whistle-blowing. We have made the
point in our written submission, and I think it is worth emphasising,
clearly in terms of food safety, in terms of some practices which
need to be exposed which are going on, people need to have the
ability to raise that and, if they cannot get a resolution to
that difficulty, the ability to raise it outside without fear
of losing their livelihood in areas where it is difficult to find
work anyway. Quite clearly some of the companies are very sensitive
to press speculation, press reports, et cetera, and can react
quite aggressively to that particular situation. Again it is reemphasising
that point. As far as I am concerned, if you treat people fairly,
then you will get, if you like, the animal in the process treated
fairly as well and there is a direct link there, and a direct
link between worker safety and food safety which is so vital to
retaining consumer confidence in the end product which we want
to sell and which our members' jobs depend on.
Q251 Diana Organ: I was interested
in your comment which says, and obviously it goes hand in hand
with what the working conditions are like, that there are practices
in the issue of food safety, practices which need to be exposed
which are going on. What are these practices which need to be
exposed and what has the Union done to expose these food safety
concerns that the Union obviously has?
Mr Allenson: If I can just elaborate
on that, in terms of the industry generally it was really concerns
initially about what was happening with foreign meat imports,
the use of illegal substances, and also the recent revelation,
although it is not that new, about the issue of beef and pork
protein being found in chicken because that holds on to water
and adds to the weight of the product. There are and there will
be animal welfare practices. I cannot quote exact examples here
today, but I can tell you that we have had anecdotal evidence
to us in the past about practices which we believe need to be
exposed. Now, if people have the opportunity of raising that properly,
but they feel threatened with not just their livelihood, but perhaps
their promotion prospects or moving on to a different area or
moving on to a different shift pattern, they will keep their mouths
firmly closed. What has the Union done about that? We have tried
in every company where we are organised to ensure that there are
appropriate procedures and grievance arrangements in place so
that people do feel able to raise these issues, but we need to
take that further in the interests of food safety and, as I say,
to link in food safety really with consumer confidence. As we
have found out from other areas of agriculture, if the consumer
has not got the confidence in the product, then the industry very
quickly goes down in terms of profitability and in terms of numbers
employed.
Q252 Chairman: Would you agree with
me that the fact that five firms are responsible for 80% of meat
production means that a blacklist of suppliers would be relatively
easy to operate?
Mr Allenson: It could well be.
Q253 Chairman: Do you believe that
it does?
Mr Allenson: I have no evidence
to support that.
Q254 Diana Organ: You are saying
obviously that the Union has a real role to play, but of course
in the, as the Chairman has just said, five firms which operate
and in the 20% which is outside of those firms, they are predominantly
not unionised at all, are they, so it tends to be the better employers
that recognise trade unions and where the union is able to have
a role to play, but in the ones that we might be a little more
concerned about, they tend not to be unionised at all and, consequently,
they may not be so good with their food safety practices.
Mr Allenson: Possibly.
Q255 Diana Organ: We can assume that,
can we not, I think?
Mr Allenson: Possibly, yes.
Q256 Diana Organ: You just said that
there is a high turnover of people because the job has real problems,
the conditions are not great and that there are a lot of migrant
workers, so I wonder if you could tell me about the food safety
training that exists and what the existing workers receive and
is it ongoing? With a high turnover of staff, how do you keep
training up for food safety training?
Mr Quittenton: At great expense.
From what I have seen of other companies, some of them will send
new workers to a college for a week to give them an insight into
the industry before they bring them on to the floor, other companies
will have a one to two-day induction before they actually go on
to the floor, so they sit them in the offices at work and explain
everything to them, and then of course there is the on-line training
once they get on to the line. You tend to find that most companies
have about a 13-week probation period where that is also their
training time. They will have their training instructors with
them almost constantly, keeping an eye on the way they work, making
sure they work to the correct specifications, making sure they
work hygienically and safely, so that 13 weeks is the sort of
major crunch point to make sure that everyone has it, and that
is also a high turnover point, within those 13 weeks.
Q257 Diana Organ: But of course they
have to do it because the benefit to the company is that you both
represent companies which have a name to uphold and they do not
want somebody getting whether it is salmonella or whatever from
the chicken, do they?
Mr Quittenton: No, that is right.
Q258 Diana Organ: How good is the
UK poultry industry as a whole at promoting good practices? Both
of you have said that your companies are really involved and spend
a lot of money on their training, but generally in the industry
throughout, how good are we at promoting good practices?
Mr Quittenton: Not as good as,
say, beef has been over recent years, you know, "Buy British
beef", or "Buy British pork". I do not think there
has been as much relevance made to poultry.
Q259 Diana Organ: And yet most consumers,
I think, if you ask them what do they think is the dodgiest thing
that they might cook, and I am not being sexist here, but it is
true that it tends to be the men who barbeque and the women who
shout at them how to do it and usually what the women shout out
is, "Make sure the chicken is cooked on the barbeque".
Mr Quittenton: Yes, that is right,
so they put it in the oven first.
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