Examination of Witness (Questions 60-79)
MS GEORGINA
GODWIN
TUESDAY 21 JANUARY 2003
60. Are the actions of those people within ZANU-PF
motivated by genuine concern for what is actually going for the
repression and democracy and freedom of speech as well as the
current economic crisis, or is it simply about self-preservation?
(Ms Godwin) Of course there is power and there is
greed, but I do not believe that every single member of ZANU-PF
is an evil person. That is surely just not possible. I am sure
that people have seen the writing on the wall, that it is all
going to be over soon unless something is done. There must be
people within the party who want a return to democracy, but on
the other hand of course there is an enormous amount of money
being made by such people as Zvinavashe and Mnangagwa out of the
Congo and other means. People are ripping it with smuggling maize
and sugar and foreign currency. Anybody in a position of power
now is rich. What is your alternative? You make a lot of money
and have a farm or go to jail if we are no longer in power; what
would you take?
61. Is there actually any moderate faction within
ZANU-PF?
(Ms Godwin) I think Mujuru may be the moderate to
a degree. I think he is well respected and he has the backing
of people who are moderates or rather he backs those that are
seen to be moderates like possibly Simba Makoni, who is now no
longer in the government.
62. Does that group of people stand any realistic
chance of deposing Mr Mugabe?
(Ms Godwin) I believe so. I think deposing is perhaps
not the right word. If he were guaranteed immunity I think he
would go. But therein lies another debate.
63. In your opinion how has the morale of the
opposition been affected by its failure to wrest power from ZANU-PF?
(Ms Godwin) They are continuing to contest in court
the illegitimate election and I think that they are determined
to carry on fighting, that they will take this through the courts
even though the courts are themselves not necessarily what they
should be. I think that they are very strong with themselves.
I think that they are determined to see this thing through. The
fact that Mr Tsvangirai is willing to cooperate, that he is willing
to talk to emissaries from Mnangagwa or indeed from Mugabe is
a good sign.
64. Is there still strong popular support for
the Movement for Democratic Change?
(Ms Godwin) Enormous, I believe.
65. What more do you think the British government
can do to help the MDC or to encourage at least a peaceful democratic
solution?
(Ms Godwin) I think that any direct help to the MDC
would be a mistake because of how Britain is perceived. Also the
Political Parties Finance Act completely prohibits any international
funding for political parties. Obviously it would be illegal to
fund them in any way. What the British Government could possibly
be doing is to expand the sanctions, perhaps not just increasing
the number of names of the list but the number of people affected
by it in terms of family members, of children at school, overseas.
That sort of thing is going to hurt. Eventually, surely, those
honourable men who I believe must exist within ZANU-PF will see
that it really is hurting their families or their businesses or
whatever it may be.
66. May I ask you, Ms Godwin, are you optimistic
that there will be a change soon and that there will be a return
to democracy soon?
(Ms Godwin) I change my mind every ten minutes depending
on who has just phoned to tell me about their rape, torture or
whatever. One minute we think yes, it is going to be OK; we're
going home. Then the next it is not. I am sorry, I cannot answer
that question.
Chairman
67. What is your reading of the mood of the
population? Anyone with eyes to see can see the enormous deterioration
of the economy of the country, can see the fact that the roads
are not being made up, can see the general malaise. Are the people
who telephone you and any others as best you can get them, are
they cowed? Are they feeling they want to do something? How do
you best characterise the prevailing mood of the population?
(Ms Godwin) I think it is very difficult. People do
want to do something but they need to be led and it is very difficult
for the MDC to call for any sort of mass action because, of course,
the leaders would then be arrested and there would then be no
leadership whatsoever. Tomorrow, for instance, there is a stayaway
called for by the National Constitution of Assembly, who are the
people who are trying to get the constitution changed. It will
be very interesting to see how well that is supported. I think
people are very, very angry, but then again if you are hungry
you do not have that much energy. It is very difficult. As you
say, you would have to be blind not to see what is going on around
you. Of course people recognise that and want it to stop, desperately.
It is easy enough for people like me to be activist but when you
are doing it without health insurance and without recourse to
lawyers and when you know you might get away with it today but
tomorrow they are going to come and kill your family, it is very,
very difficult. The people of Zimbabwe have been incredibly brave
with no backup really and I think the people are just trying to
look after themselves; they are trying to feed their families;
they are trying to do whatever they can to survive and they hope
that this thing will just end.
68. Those that have portable skills presumably
are tempted to leave.
(Ms Godwin) Absolutely.
69. How significant is the exodus of trained
people from Zimbabwe?
(Ms Godwin) I believe it is enormous. I do not have
figures.
70. Presumably you have colleagues in London.
(Ms Godwin) Yes, particularly, as you say professionals,
health professionals particularly. It is going to have a long
term affect on Zimbabwe because even if there is a regime change
those people are now earning foreign currency, they are here or
in America; they are not going to go back with any degree or urgency
I do not think. I feel that should there be a regime change the
best possible thing that could happen would be—and I believe
that the MDC have this on their agenda—to make it an attractive
package for young Zimbabweans or trained Zimbabweans to go back
to the country; tax breaks or whatever, just to encourage people
to go back and rebuild the nation. But even if they do that it
is going to be generational I think.
Mr Chidgey
71. You heard the questions I asked Mr Longworth
earlier on the humanitarian side. I am rather interested in the
context of this problem—huge problem, disaster really—of
the eight million who are at risk of starvation. Reflecting on
the reply you gave a moment ago about the reaction of the people
of Zimbabwe, you rather echoed a comment made in April last year
by Richard Dowden (whom I am sure you know of), who said "There
is no sign, that I have seen, of a great popular uprising. The
poorer people get the less likely they are to cause that sort
of trouble." In the context of your 24,000 hits a day on
the web site, the sort of feedback information you are getting
from the people of Zimbabwe, what is your understanding of the
current extent of the severity of the food crisis in Zimbabwe?
Do you have a feel for what actually is happening throughout the
country?
(Ms Godwin) Undoubtedly there is a famine and as there
should be no famine in a democracy; this is man-made and let us
make no mistake about that. Yes, there has been a drought but
the dams are 70% full. I think that that is a very, very important
point to take on board before even discussing this. The people
there are angry, as you said, and are hungry. There is not going
to be an uprising, I believe, because there is not the energy
for it for a start. But I think there are degrees of starvation.
All starvation is wrong, obviously, but I do not think you are
looking at people who are dying this minute; you are looking at
vulnerable people in the society—people who are HIV positive,
the elderly, children—who are dying right now. The rest
is still to come. It undoubtedly will come unless something is
done, but I think right at this very minute people are not dropping
like flies in the street but they are only having one meal every
two or three days perhaps.
72. You make the point that the crisis does
not seem likely to affect the political situation over the coming
months because the people are just too weak—spiritually,
morally and physically—to take any action themselves. Is
that right?
(Ms Godwin) I believe so.
73. Which brings us on to what external factors
could be brought to bear. We have already heard that some intervention
by Britain would be counter-productive; the intervention through
the EU is not working; the Commonwealth is more or less powerless;
and the UN, until they can define what genocide is, do not really
have a mandate to involve themselves either. Coming back to this
point that it does not really matter how you determine which people
are going to be starved together or else killed quickly. With
those sorts of numbers it is an international crime, regardless
of how you identify them or who the perpetrators are. That is
my view. Perhaps I should be asking you the question, is it your
view? I would like to pursue this. We feel increasingly frustrated
by the fact that the British Government cannot involve itself.
It cannot involve itself in sponsoring a political party in a
foreign country, quite right. Everybody else seems to be hidebound
too. Do you feel that the people of Zimbabwe are seeking some
form of involvement from perhaps the United Nations to help them
in their plight?
(Ms Godwin) Absolutely. What we hear over and over
again is that we need UN peace keeping people in here supervising
the food distribution. That is the one thing that Zimbabweans
keep telling us. I also think that the NGOs, the people distributing
food, have a moral duty to speak out which they are not doing.
We phone them up and ask them to give us interviews all the time
and they say that if they speak to us then what little they are
doing to help will be stopped. Maybe it will be stopped, but how
can they stand there and see that this person is on the list so
that they get fed and this person does not, and not say anything?
This is what is happening. It is an open secret in Harare that
on the Save the Children trucks you see people in ZANU-PF youth
militia uniform. That goes on every day. Who is talking about
it? You ring up all these aid agencies; they do not want to speak
about it. It is a terrible thing and I believe they must surely
take on board this responsibility. They are watching people starve
whilst feeding other people. They need to do something about the
people they cannot feed.
Mr Illsley
74. I think you touched on this a moment ago
in terms of sanctions. You heard the questions posed earlier.
Do you agree that the list of people affected by sanctions should
be extended. I think you mentioned people studying abroad and
the families of people who are already targeted. Would you like
to say a few words on that?
(Ms Godwin) And businessmen too. I think there are
a lot of people who are propping up the regime with their businesses.
There are an awful lot of people who are dealing with the regime
and they should be stopped; people who are resident both in this
country and, I believe, in the United States, who would be very
hurt by that. Particularly if the rest of the EU could be brought
on board with this. I know that it is British Government policy—and
I would say that I agree—that for Britain to act alone is
not nearly as effective as Britain acting with her EU partners.
75. I mentioned earlier in questions to Mr Longworth
and he agreed that direct sanctions against the people of Zimbabwe
would be counter-productive. But there are articles beginning
to appear suggesting that perhaps the United States might be looking
at financial sanctions. Do you agree that that would be counter-productive
or do you think we might have reached a stage where some limited
sanctions would be helpful?
(Ms Godwin) What sort of sanctions?
76. I think on a financial basis.
(Ms Godwin) I think we should perhaps be looking at
people who supply Zimbabwe with grain. Who sells it to them? Who
sells Zimbabwe fuel? Who provides all of this stuff? The grain
is then distributed in a partisan manner. I think we need to look
at the suppliers and perhaps international pressure could be brought
to bear upon those people who are propping up the regime by selling
them things.
77. A question on the visa regime. Are there
any problems with regard to the issue of visas to ordinary Zimbabweans?
Are there restrictions on their travel? Is that causing an issue?
(Ms Godwin) I think it is problem for asylum seekers.
People who really need to get away in a hurry are having difficulty.
78. Finally from me, the cricket question. I
know that you have been a little bit outspoken on this in the
past. What is your view on the cricket world cup?
(Ms Godwin) I do not know whether you saw Fergal Keane's
report last night when he interviewed the Mayor of Harare who
said that what is really going to happen—what is really
going to hurt—is that the Barmy Army and the teams themselves
will not see any violence or experience any difficulty or discomfort.
That is because all the Zimbabweans who might be wanting to show
that to them will have been locked up and intimidated over those
weeks during the matches. I think that anybody going there, any
international person coming in for that purpose, is hurting Zimbabwe
because people will be locked away or whatever. I think picking
up a cricket bat and playing international matches in Zimbabwe,
you might as well be clubbing people to death yourself frankly.
Also, if you think cricket is a problem, wait until Mugabe goes
to France for the Afro-Franco summit. Should he go I think the
cricket is just the very, very tip of the iceberg in terms of
reaction.
Sir John Stanley
79. You spoke about the equivocal position of
some of the NGOs and you referred to the Save the Children Fund.
What do you find is the position of the UN agencies which are
operating in Zimbabwe? Has the World Food Programme got any material
activity going on there, for example?
(Ms Godwin) Yes, the World Food Programme is distributing
food but, as you know, they have to distribute through various
organisations. WFP choses to distribute through ORAP (the Organisation
for Rural Associations for Progress). The person who runs ORAP
is Mrs Sithembiso Nyoni; she is a ZANU-PF MP.
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