Examination of Witnesses (Questions 126-139)
BARONESS AMOS,
DR ANDREW
POCOCK AND
MR TONY
BRENNAN
TUESDAY 25 MARCH 2003
Chairman
126. Baroness Amos, may I welcome you again
to the Committee. It seems a very long time since you were with
us on the last occasion, it was 14 May of last year; following
that, the Committee produced its report in July[1].
I notice, from the recent BBC News, yesterday, the heading: "Brutal
Zimbabwe Crackdown." Amnesty International asserted that
up to 500 people have been detained in a "new and dangerous
phase of repression." The BBC's Barnaby Phillips says that
all the evidence points to a new crackdown of unprecedented brutality,
and so on. Today, the BBC News states, the Zimbabwean Government
is using "unprecedented violence against political opponents,
say the United States." So it looks, on the face of it, as
if, since our meeting in May of last year, there is more, and
worse, of the same. Would you, perhaps, with your two colleagues,
whom I welcome, we have with us Dr Andrew Pocock, who is Head
of the Africa Department (Southern), of the FCO, and Mr Tony Brennan,
again, the Head of the Zimbabwe Section of the same Africa Department;
so if you would begin, please, by giving us an update?
(Baroness Amos) Thank you very much,
Chairman. As you say, it is some time since I addressed the Committee
on Zimbabwe. I think it would be fair to say that the situation
has got worse. What we have seen in the last few days, since a
major stay-away, which was organised by the MDC, and over 80%
of Zimbabweans participated in that, in Harare, is that the victimisation
and harassment of MDC supporters since that stay-away has got
very bad indeed. As the Amnesty report says, there have been over
500 arrests, 250 people have required hospital treatment, we have
seen an increase in human rights abuses, and that is why we were
so pleased that the Commonwealth agreed, through the Troika and
through a statement which was issued by the Secretary General
on 16 March, that Zimbabwe's suspension from the Councils of the
Commonwealth should continue until December, when there will be
consideration of this issue at the Commonwealth Heads of Government
Meeting. It is clear to us that Zimbabwe is violating the principles
of the Harare Declaration.
127. Can you help on this. You mentioned that
there was an increase in human rights abuses, well evidenced by
Amnesty. When Amnesty gave ample evidence of human rights abuses
in respect of Iraq, the Government produced a Government document
setting out the nature of those abuses, which had two cheers,
I think, from Amnesty, saying, "Why now?" and "It
needed to be done." Well you would not be subject to the
same criticism of the timing of the publication if you were to
produce a similar document in respect of Zimbabwe. Have you considered
this?
(Baroness Amos) We have considered a range of things.
What we have done is produce one document which sets out very
clearly the history of our relationship in relation to the land
reform process in Zimbabwe[2].
Committee members will know that the Government of Zimbabwe have
sought to indicate that the issues of concern to the international
community, around human rights abuses, the breakdown of the rule
of law and the problems with last year's flawed elections, are
all to do with a bilateral problem between the UK and Zimbabwe,
stemming back to land reform. So we have produced a document that
sets the record straight, with respect to land reform.
128. When was that published?
(Baroness Amos) That has been in existence for some
time, for well over a year, and has been updated on a number of
occasions, and we have shared it with colleagues; certainly, it
was produced before last year's Commonwealth Heads of Government
Meeting, because we shared it with Commonwealth colleagues.
129. Why not a document of a similar nature
setting out the scale of the human rights abuses?
(Baroness Amos) One of the reasons that the Government
has not produced such a document is because the information exists
already in a number of forms, including from Zimbabwean NGOs,
but I am very happy to take that suggestion back.
130. Would you write to me, say, in 14 days,
to say whether you will be doing that?
(Baroness Amos) I would be very happy to do that[3].
131. The other area is that of corruption. It
is pretty clear that, far from assisting the landless Africans,
much of the land which has been expropriated, appropriated, by
the Zimbabwean Government goes to friends and relations of the
President and the leading politicians, and this, I believe, has
been criticised by not only at least one senior politician but
also many people inside Zimbabwe. Why not give at least some indication
of the nature of the regime, by putting in clear terms what is
the corruption which is there, what has happened, in fact, to
the land?
(Baroness Amos) Could I just clarify, were you asking
why we have not produced a report on what is happening to the
land?
132. Yes, in terms of setting out the stall,
the case of the Government, in respect of its criticism of the
Zimbabwe regime?
(Baroness Amos) That is certainly something that we
could add to our current document, which we update on a regular
basis with respect to land reform. As the Committee will know,
we are very, very concerned indeed about the outcome of the fast-track
land reform process, it has led to the humanitarian crisis that
we are seeing in Zimbabwe at the moment. There was an internal
audit, which was produced within ZANU-PF, which indicated very
clearly that, much of the land, there were a number of people
within the administration who were benefiting from the land reform
process and had more than one farm, including the Information
Minister, Jonathon Moyo, the Air Marshall, and also Robert Mugabe's
sister, Sabina Mugabe, and indeed there are allegations that Grace
Mugabe herself has benefited from this process. The Committee
will know that it is very important for us, if we are publishing
information, that we are able to identify that the information
is correct. This information, which has come to light with respect
to the allocation of land, has come to light as a result of a
document which was sent to Africa Confidential, earlier this month,
so this is new information.
133. That sounds a pretty credible source, if
it is an internal audit.
(Baroness Amos) That is absolutely right; but, as
I was saying to the Committee, it was only earlier this month,
and, of course, we will continue to make this information public,
because it is important for people to know not only that—
134. You will continue to make it public; well,
in what way have you made public the corruption?
(Baroness Amos) I have certainly made it public, in
answers that I have made in the House of Lords to questions which
have been put to me.
135. Can we end my questioning, for the moment,
just on this point. You will consider the publication of a document,
setting out the current position on land reform, human rights
and possibly something in respect of the corruption?
(Baroness Amos) Yes; and I will write to you within
a fortnight[4].
Sir Patrick Cormack: Just on this very point,
I would like slightly to toughen up, if I may, Baroness Amos,
the questions from the Chairman and ask you to do this specifically,
because all this information, as you rightly say, is available,
but it has not been collated, and I do think that parliamentarians,
not just on this Committee but in both Houses, ought to have a
document, which then is available to the public, the press, and
so on, just documenting precisely what this man has done to abuse
the rights of his citizens, and on the question of land reform
et al. Of course, you must be careful that everything you
say is accurate and vouched for, but please will you do it, and
do it as soon as possible.
Chairman: Thank you, Sir Patrick. Mr Olner,
please.
Mr Olner
136. Basically, Chairman, my questioning goes
along the same route, because it is relatively well-established
that human rights atrocities that are being committed by the Mugabean
regime are listed and they are known, but it is not known generally
about the anti-corruption methods there are. Are there any contacts
you have with members of the opposition, or even with members
of the ruling ZANU-PF party, that they are concerned also about
the corruption that is taking place?
(Baroness Amos) Certainly, in the context that we
have heard, it is clear that there are some in ZANU-PF who are
concerned, and there are people of course in the opposition who
are very concerned indeed about this. The Africa Director in the
Foreign and Commonwealth Office made a very recent trip to Zimbabwe
and some of these issues were raised with him, and indeed my colleague
Tony Brennan was in Zimbabwe only the week before last and again
had contacts with a variety of stakeholders in Zimbabwe and concerns
were raised about some of these issues.
137. But is that feeling strong enough to start
to create an undercurrent that Mugabe could be replaced by the
leading members in ZANU-PF?
(Baroness Amos) I think that members of the Committee
will know that there have been suggestions, over quite a long
period of time, that there are concerns and splits within ZANU-PF;
indeed, towards the end of last year there were suggestions that
meetings had been held between members of ZANU-PF and the MDC
to talk about the way forward for Zimbabwe, this was confirmed
by Morgan Tsvangirai, but not confirmed by ZANU-PF, those members
of ZANU-PF involved in the same way. I think that what we can
see is that there is a great deal of concern. I think what has
happened as a result of the stay-away, and the fact that the Mugabe
regime has come down so harshly against MDC supporters since that
stay-away, is an indication that they feel very threatened by
this and that clearly there are some cracks within the regime.
I think it is very difficult for us, as the UK Government, to
be able to identify the extent and depth of that, but it is something
that we are monitoring very closely indeed.
138. Is there any realistic prospect that Mugabe
will agree to step down, should the chorus become too strong over
there?
(Baroness Amos) I think that there is one contextual
point, which I would make clear to members of the Committee, which
is that there are five by-elections pending for Parliament in
Zimbabwe, we have two which are coming up over the weekend and
another three where dates have not been fixed but there will have
to be by-elections. If all of these are "won" by ZANU-PF,
it will mean that the ruling regime then has the two-thirds majority
that it requires to change the constitution. Now, under the current
constitution, if a President were to step down from office, it
would require an election within 90 days; however, if the constitution
were changed to enable a sitting President to step down but to
hand over to someone of their own choosing, it would mean that
a presidential election would not happen until 2008. So it is
entirely possible, if ZANU-PF were to get the majority that they
require, that they would look to change the constitution. So your
questions about is it possible that there might be a change and
what might that change be, I think that there are a number of
different factors, which are coming together over the next few
weeks, which could have implications for that question.
Mr Hamilton
139. Baroness Amos, the humanitarian crisis
is acute. I wanted to come back on to the political situation,
because it seems to me that there are a number of countries in
the world, one of which is Iraq, where we have an authoritarian
regime that is starving its population, that is using the most
brutal forms of repression, as is happening in Zimbabwe. And I
want to know what our Government is doing to bring the United
Nations further on board to put further pressure on Zimbabwe to
reform its own internal political situation, to stop the kind
of repression that is going on, that we know happens in many other
countries, and we are at war with one country for that very reason
at the moment. And I want to know what we are doing to bring the
UN on board, so that the world community can turn round to Zimbabwe
and say, "Enough; you're starving your population, you're
doing this for political reasons, you're using the most brutal
forms of repression, and you're doing that to stay in power as
an autocratic dictator with supposed democratic legitimacy, which
nobody really believes"?
(Baroness Amos) Well there are three arms of the UN
that we have worked with, in this respect, up until now, one is
UNDP, the second is the World Food Programme, and a third is the
Commission on Human Rights. Before I go into what we have done
with each of those agencies, could I come back to your specific
point about Iraq and comparisons between Iraq and Zimbabwe, because
this is a comparison that many people have made. There are many
differences, but the key difference is that Iraq has violated
17 Chapter Seven resolutions under the UN Security Council. Now
the UN Security Council deals with issues which are of concern
in terms of international peace and security, and, for obvious
reasons, they tend to stay out of issues which are considered
to be domestic. So until we reach the point in Zimbabwe where
the UN Security Council takes the view that what is happening
in Zimbabwe is a threat to international peace and security, for
example, a mass exodus in terms of refugees, we have some difficulty
in terms of taking this issue to the UN Security Council. There
has been a steady movement of refugees, but it has been steady,
it has not been a mass refugee movement.
1 Foreign Affairs Committee, Tenth Report of Session
2001-02, Zimbabwe, HC 813. Back
2
Ev 36-39. Back
3
Ev 35. Back
4
Ev 35. Back
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