Select Committee on Foreign Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 85 - 99)

TUESDAY 11 FEBRUARY 2003

MR STEVE CRAWSHAW AND MS ELAHE SHARIFPOUR-HICKS

  Chairman

85. Mr Crawshaw, you are Director of Human Rights Watch. Ms Elahe Sharifpour-Hicks, you are a researcher on Iran for the same organisation, Human Rights Watch. May I welcome you both. Mr Crawshaw is an old hand and has helped the Committee quite recently on general human rights matters. Having welcomed you, would you set the platform for the Committee by saying what are your most serious concerns on human rights in respect of Iran?

  (Mr Crawshaw) We would echo many of the points which we have just heard. Perhaps the most important thing is to say that one needs to realise that there are indeed the two parallel processes going on in Iran and that commitments that may have been made—or partially made—on one side are being either ignored or simply trampled on the other side. I think it is important to constantly press. On the one hand one is pressing on the conservatives, but those with whom the dialogue is most direct is clearly with the reformers and they, too, must take an active role in ensuring that the whole range of really quite terrible incidences that are going on at the moment need to be taken in hand.

  86. What are the most awful?
  (Mr Crawshaw) To take one obvious thing which has knock on effects in other contexts is the closure of a large number of newspapers and magazines, which is simply freedom of expression. But it goes beyond that. People associated with that have then been jailed, forced to make confessions—confessions of absurd alleged crimes of wishing to overthrow the government - under the force of torture. People then tried to withdraw those again. But the whole issue of people being held, held without trial, tortured while in jail and disappearing on some occasions into a kind of black hole of justice. There was the notorious prison 59, but in broader terms people are being jailed and that is happening quite outside all forms of legality. That is an extraordinary important issue. The positive signs that we are seeing of wishes for change have often not been implemented fully and on the other hand things have been strongly blocked.

  Mr Pope

  87. We were told recently by a senior figure in the Iranian government that Iran did not have the worst human rights record in the region, which I did not find terribly reassuring. We have evidence of people being executed after an unfair trial. We have evidence of students being detained, religious minorities persecuted, critics of the government harassed, underground shadowy military organisations linked to hard-line clerical movements. This really is a terrible situation. It seems to me that it really is not getting any better. What is your assessment?

  (Mr Crawshaw) You are right that in many respects things do not seem to be getting better. On the other hand—and I think this is what one really needs to clutch for—there was a commitment made last year on allowing in United Nations rapporteurs into the country. On the debit side, that commitment has still not been made in writing and that is where it really needs to be so that can measure it. On the credit side, we have an UN official going in as chairman of the working group on arbitrary detentions. He is going to go into the country probably within the next few days and he will be back from his visit by the time that you get there. This is the kind of thing which does imply at least the possibility of movement. I think what is terribly important is to realise those possibilities are there. President Khatami as you also know has made a stand—which was perhaps not strong enough—saying that power needs to lie with the presidency. You cannot have all these other forces moving in and taking the power away from the presidency. He has not been powerful enough. We feel he needs support on that. All of these things indicate that there is movement whereas there are systems where there is simply no movement at all.

  88. Sometimes in the West we look at human rights as being an absolute freestanding proposition that human rights is a good thing and abuses of human rights are a bad thing. I am sure we would all sign up to that. I am interested in what the political effect of these abuses of human rights is. In terms of the authorities is it actually working in holding down opposition to the system or is it having the obverse effect of that in which the more you repress people the more they aspire to freedom?
  (Mr Crawshaw) It is absolutely not working. I think it is one of the great fantasies that one still hears sometimes—not in this room—how human rights are a western invention and being imposed. Certainly in my travels around the world and Human Rights Watch's experience over the years is that you never hear it from the people themselves whose human rights are being abused. Whichever country you are in those people actually mind very deeply about basic rights being removed, which may be as basic as being able to say what you think when you walk into the greengrocers in the morning without fear of being picked up by the secret police. The danger of putting a lid on things undoubtedly creates the danger of greater instability rather than greater stability. I think people who introduce repressive mechanisms sometimes do persuade themselves that repression is a way of keeping stability. That is quite wrong. I think the student unrest is something which one can see is a small element of that. It has been mentioned earlier that there is a very large, young, educated population and to try to repress the very clear desire for changes within society could backfire very badly indeed.

  89. You mentioned that newspapers were being repressed on a more widespread basis. I noticed in the briefing note that one paper was closed down on the charge of insulting the authorities. This idea of repressing newspapers, is what happens that it is like capping a volcano, that the pressure for freedom of expression will just find another way out? So while it may be relatively easy to close down a newspaper, that will find another way of expressing opposition to the system. You mentioned the student protest. Is that really what is happening?
  (Mr Crawshaw) Yes, the pattern you have described is a very clear pattern. If you push something down in one place, it pops up somewhere else. What is particularly alarming is that it has not just been the closures of the papers, but also the jailing and horrific treatment of the managing editors, the editors themselves. Even by the standards of media suppression in many parts of the world, this is very strong. There is that sense that society has not come to a standstill; this is not a repressive regime where it can simply put down and you do, of course, have part of the ruling structure which has popular legitimacy and the difficulty is to reconcile those two things, the part that has popular legitimacy and broadly wishes to give the kind of things which a great proportion of society wish to see and others who take on to themselves a given legitimacy but which society has perhaps not given to them. That is clearly an explosive combination.
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) I would add to Steve's comments that they closed more than 90 newspapers in the last two years. They are using a criminal law—an instrument of a crime for the hands of criminals—and using that law to close newspapers. Recently the remaining reformists that did not get sent to jail have opened web sites and they have their own web sites now. In the last few months the judiciary is thinking of a way of closing web sites and jailing those who are running them. In the past newspapers worked as a political party and a reform agenda was put in those newspapers and that is why they have become a target. The Iranian leader said there should be no amendment to the press law. President Khatami, to his credit, at the beginning promised freedom of expression but unfortunately even though it was prepared by the cabinet, by the President, it has not been introduced to the Parliament to amend the press law.

  Sir Patrick Cormack

  90. You heard the exchange I had with our previous witness. When I asked him if he thought that our attitude in Britain should be frank and friendly he agreed emphatically. Do you also agree with that?

  (Mr Crawshaw) We do, yes. We do not believe that the EU dialogue—or indeed between Britain and Iran—should be halted. It is extremely positive and can play a very, very positive role. That, if you like, is the "friendly" bit of your phrase. Beyond that there is the possibility of a resolution at the United Nations Human Rights Commission. Sometimes there is a danger that people think that they have such a good dialogue going on that they should not do the rude thing of making a critical resolution. Our feeling is that these things can work in symmetry together and that if improvements are not there then a resolution is needed to reflect that fact. The dialogue should be seen to be taking things forward. Can I also put on record on behalf of Elahe Hicks personally but also on behalf of Human Rights Watch that during a mission when she was in Tehran last year there were a number of very complicated security concerns. Diplomats at the British Embassy were extraordinarily helpful and went to some lengths to be extraordinarily helpful. It was, for us, a very nice signal that the British Foreign Office takes the issues of human rights very seriously.

  91. I am sure we are all appreciate that going on the record. I had a lot of dealings in the early 1970s as chairman of the campaign for the release of soviet Germany with those who were persecuted for their religious beliefs behind the former iron curtain. I came across some pretty horrific examples as you would well know. Would you like to say a word or two about religious persecution and can you compare it with the sort of persecution that did exist in the Soviet Union at its most repressive? Is it worse than that or is it on a par with that?
  (Mr Crawshaw) Religious persecution and restrictions are serious. I think my view in terms of your comparative question—and I studied in the Soviet Union and Communist Russia is something I knew well—I do think we are talking of a different level here because it was so ideologically driven that you were simply not allowed at any level to have that set of beliefs, a situation which does exist elsewhere in the Middle East. As you say, there are a number of restrictions.
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) In Iranian law, penal code, civil code, discrimination against religious minorities is legalised. There are three recognised religions: Jewish, Christians and Zoroastrians. They are recognised and have MPs in parliament. But they have problems. Issues such as access to higher education, access to a job cause problems. The largest religious minority with 300,000 are the Baha'is. They have right now four Baha'is who were committed to death row but now are sentenced to life imprisonment purely because they are Baha'i. They do not have access to higher education. If a student graduates from high school and says he or she is Baha'i they cannot go to university because they are Baha'i. They do not have a job. They do not have the right to worship publicly.

  92. As far as the Christians and the Jews are concerned, we did talk to a fairly high placed Iranian official not very long ago who suggested that there are Christian members of the Majalis and Jewish members and so on, and that all was really exaggerated here in the west. Would you like to just say a word about that, particularly in the context of the Christians and the Jews.
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Last year a Jewish MP addressed the Parliament and complained about the issues they are facing like employment and better life, access to better life inside the country. They have a Sunni MP in the Parliament who complained about problems. The most backward place in the country is the Sunni, the system in Baluchistan and the education and other issues they are facing. They do not have any mosques in Tehran, the capital. Sunni are Muslim. The majority of Iranians are Shi'ai and the official religion in the country is Shi'ai. The Sunni had the same problems addressed by their MP in the Parliament.

  93. Much of what you have said one could say was deprivation rather than active persecution. Is there a lot of active persecution?
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Active persecution against largest minority Baha'i, yes.

  94. And active persecution against Christians and Jews? Yes or no?
  (Mr Crawshaw) No. Evangelical Christians. They allow Muslims to go to their churches; they can no longer do that. They have three bishops that have been killed in 1996 and the government have never found out who was behind the killing. They belonged to evangelical churches.

  Mr Hamilton

  95. On 3 February Human Rights Watch wrote to the Foreign Secretary in advance of his meeting with the Iranian Foreign Minister and said, "We welcome your government's efforts to develop better ties with Iran and to encourage the country's closer integration with the norms and standards of the international community. We hope that your government uses this relationship to ensure better compliance with human rights standards by the Iranian government and to remind the Iranian Foreign Minister of the promises made hy the government of President Khatami to pursue an agenda of reform in the human rights field. Such reforms have yielded very little concrete progress as yet." At what point do you think that you would advocate an end to the process of engagement with Iran currently pursued by the British Government?

  (Mr Crawshaw) I am not sure that we would wish to put the question that way round. I am sorry to be evasive. I try not to be in this context because in a sense that implies the acceptance of a kind of defeat which I do not think we would wish to. I am sorry if that seems cowardly that I am not going there. I would turn it around to a version of what we were saying in the letter which is that I think the temptation sometimes is to be so pleased that a dialogue is going on that one ignores terribly important things which are not being done. To flip it around, if you like, one very basic thing would be on the issues of the rapporteurs. There are a number of rapporteurs who have not been able to go in yet; they have been blocked. There are people who are locked up without trial. Those kind of thing need to be pressed forward. I think it would be unwise for us to say the point at which one just gives up.
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Doors are closed to international human rights organisations. My colleague cannot go to Iran. A colleague from other human rights organisations cannot have access to Iran. I go as a human rights representative because I have an Iranian passport and I take lots of risks when going there. We would like the Iranian government to open doors to human rights agents and organisation. There is not an independent human rights organisation in the country; the government would not tolerate it. I had the opportunity to raise a question directly with President Khatami asking why he did not set up any human rights office within his office because all his agenda was about human rights. President Khatami told me that no-one in Iran takes human rights seriously. That was his answer. I responded that human rights is all about the president's agenda and policies. No-one in Iran takes human rights seriously. There is a need to encourage the government to help international and local human rights groups and open the door to them.

  96. You also say that the Iranian government as a whole should be judged upon its human rights record. Do you not think it is better to distinguish between the so called reformist elements and the more conservative elements? In other words, if we condemn everybody, are we not being unhelpful to the reformists?
  (Mr Crawshaw) I think one might perhaps again flip that around. If one constantly allows the conservatives to be the alibi of things not happening, then one does not do the cause of reform any good. Again, there have been a number of countries throughout the world where we have seen this pattern, but the encouragement and pressures one could almost say are for their own good in the sense that things need to change. Merely saying that there is a little bit of difficulty with your conservatives and we understand why you do not do any of the things you promised to do, does not help either side. When we said that, talking about the whole government, that is what we meant. When you are there it is enormously important that there is at least one lot who will be speaking the same language and others who are really terribly important to be able to talk to directly which will unblock all the other suff. It does not do the reformer's cause any good simply to go soft on them because of the undoubted difficulties which they face.

  Sir John Stanley

  97. Can you give us the Human Rights Watch perspective on whether progress is being made in Iran for civil rights for women? Can you tell us in your view what are the main areas of lack of civil rights for women at the present time in Iran?

  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Every law, penal code and civil code regarding women have not been changed. They have not been tackled and still remain the same. We have women in parliament; we have a woman as deputy president in charge of the environment, but the ordinary Iranian women face the same problems since the beginning of the revolution. Twenty-four years. Yes, there is amendment to the law that women can seek divorce, but there is still a problem. Divorce is allowed with many conditions. It is the law that they cannot ask for divorce in terms of issues that are very difficult to prove for a woman. The custody of the children; women do not have that. Very recently, before this parliament introduced a bill to increase the age of marriage from nine to fifteen and it was rejected by the Council of Guardians. Then the law went back again and they increased it to thirteen. Those are the kind of changes referred to. Children in Iran can vote. The age of vote is 16. But the age of marriage for a woman is thirteen. A woman cannot be a judge. They can only be a judge in the lower court. A woman cannot be a president, simply because they are a woman. We do have women in parliament and they are raising issues like laws of retribution. A woman is qualified as half of a man but they are fighting that. The Iranian government and the parliament is seeking and asking to join the Convention for the Elimination of Discrimination against Women and it was rejected by the Council of Guardians. Women have problems with a lot of issues with the law in the country, the civil and the penal code.

  98. You have made it clear that you have concerns in the family law area. Are you saying that there is still a lot to be desired as far as basic civil rights for women are concerned in terms of right to take part in the political system, right to vote, age of voting and so on? How does the political system treat women?
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Fortunately women can vote. They had this right and the revolution could not take this law. Women were very, very active. During the eight year war with Iraq the Iranian movement sacrificed many, many things. Iranian women can drive, they can vote and they can go to parliament. But basic things for a woman like custody are issues. There are children's rights as well. Recently the Council of Guardians vetoed a law banning domestic violence against children. Father has a right to do whatever they can to kill a child because it is like a property. The law cannot do anything. The mother cannot even file a lawsuit against the father. These days they have many, many cases about domestic violence against children; the father is entitled to do that because this is based on Islamic principle.

  99. Is the criteria of voting for women identical for men and is the age of voting for women identical to men?
  (Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Sixteen years for girls and boys.


 
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