Examination of Witnesses (Questions 100
- 109)
TUESDAY 11 FEBRUARY 2003
MR STEVE
CRAWSHAW AND
MS ELAHE
SHARIFPOUR-HICKS
100. Is the marriage age the same, too?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Thirteen for girls; fifteen
for boys.
Mr Chidgey
101. I would like to go back to the point you
were making earlier about the persecution of the largest minority,
the Baha'is. The point was made that there is a distinction between
depravation and persecution in relation to Christians and Jews.
I would like to take that point up with you in regard to the Baha'is.
Would you classify what is happening to the Baha'is as persecution?
You talked about not being able to have further education and
being denied jobs, but can you give me examples of what you would
call persecution of the Baha'is and can you give me any reason
as to why they are singled out for this treatment?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) I am puzzled by
that too. I am Muslim Shi'ai and I think—and I am not a
religious scholar—that because Baha'i believe that the final
prophet came and is presenting to the Baha'i faith. Muslim and
Shi'ai believe that the prophet Mohammed is the last one. This
is an issue that they have. Again, I have to clarify that I am
not a religious scholar to talk about this issue. The Shi'ai believe
in the twelve commandments and the prophets and the Baha'i believe
that the prophet already came. In principle the Baha'i believe
in Islam and the prophet; they believe in their own prophet, the
last Messiah. There is a lot of discrimination against the Baha'i
because it cannot be tolerated that another religion has come
and said they have a prophet.
102. So the persecution is based on a difference
in religious dogma?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) Yes.
103. Can you give me examples of the type of
persecution that has been taking place?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) If you are Baha'i you cannot
publicly talk about it. Since 1989 there have been four Baha'i
on death row. They have been commuted—simply because they
are Baha'i—to life sentence.
104. Are there others in prison?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) At the time of the revolution
they had 200 Baha'i executed simply because they were Baha'i.
Baha'i children do not have access to college because if they
say they are Baha'i—and they are very frank and they always
talk about being Baha'i—they cannot go to university. They
will be blocked from going because they are Baha'i. Their property
is confiscated. There is a law that if someone is a Muslim, all
the benefits go to the Muslims. So if a Baha'i family came and
somebody claimed that property it goes directly to Muslim and
not Baha'i. They are not entitled to any property. Their marriage
would not register anywhere.
105. They are non-citizens, basically?
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) They are non-citizens when they
claim Baha'i.
106. Can we move on to the European Union issues.
You may have heard the questions I asked earlier. I would like
to ask you similar questions to see if you agree with the previous
answers that I had. It really is a question of progress in Iran
on human rights and the political criteria that we discussed earlier.
In this area where Iran fails to make satisfactory progress, at
what point would you believe that the European Union should draw
their red line and suspend negotiations? For example the proposed
trade and cooperation agreement. Or do you not think they should?
(Mr Crawshaw) The two things need to be seen that
economic progress for Iran itself let alone anyone else wishing
to trade with Iran, is dependent on movement forward in human
rights. I think it is important that the European Union press
forward in those areas and does everything possible for it not
to come to a standstill. I am sorry that does sound evasive, and
I realise it is slightly. I do not think it is appropriate for
us to say, "And this is the point" to signal already
that you can only go so far.
107. Are you therefore saying that should that
happen that the negotiations were ended and the human rights dialogue
suspended, it would demoralise the reformist parties and the Iranian
government?
(Mr Crawshaw) I think that what would demoralise the
reformist parties most of all is the feeling that the West or
the European Union is putting human rights considerations to one
side because of the importance of other things happening. If the
idea was to keep a dialogue just for the sake of having a dialogue,
I think that would be a very damaging message to send. I think
the bigger message is not the exact moment at which one decides
that it is inappropriate to continue, but understanding that the
issues need to continue to be highlighted. I think the constant
danger is that a dialogue can be seen as a useful product in itself.
I think it is a very tempting and dangerous problem when the dialogue
is seen as being the achievement as opposed to the way to get
towards the achievement.
108. Quite obviously this is about politics
and about influence and about change. And obviously the trade
and cooperation negotiations are closely linked with the human
rights dialogue as far as the EU is concerned. But if we take
the analysis one step further, which is basically not to use this
as a lever, what other leverage can the EU place on the Iranian
government to accelerate reform?
(Mr Crawshaw) It can and should be used as a lever.
I think that the number of issues that we have talked about before
of allowing in the rapporteurs, a number of important releases,
the ratification of various key treaties, all of these are very
basic things which can be pushed through the system with relative
ease. I think that it ought to be used as a persuasive tool, a
lever, saying "You are able to do this; you can do this and
if this does not happen then there is no point in having this
conversation". The conversation itself may seem valuable
to this side—and it is—but it is extraordinarily valuable
to the other side. We need to press those concerns.
Mr Maples
109. Do you think that the human rights situation
in Iran is getting better or worse? Secondly, could you place
it in a context, if one had a scale of really bad offenders and
not quite so bad offenders? I guess I would rather live in Iran
than Iraq, for instance, on that scale. Killing and imprisonment
without trial seems to be a slightly more serious breach of human
rights than closing down a newspaper. If one puts this in the
context of other countries in the region where do you think Iran
fits? Is it better or worse than Saudi Arabia or Egypt?
(Mr Crawshaw) I do not like to be seen
as avoiding questions. In general terms we avoid league tables,
I have to say. The one I would be happy not to dodge is your mention
of Iraq where undoubtedly it is difficult to match the horrors
of the Iraq regime. Beyond that we would not really get into league
tables. To take the other question that goes with it, of things
getting better or worse, really above all it is fragile. It is
very important that your visit is going to be now at a time when
there is everything to play for. One the one hand the reformists
are hugely under threat. We have seen that very much in the last
couple of years and even the last couple of months. On the other
hand we see that society is pushing. It is really with a very
great question mark, I think. Fragile would be word.
(Ms Sharifpour-Hicks) I think the human
rights situation is getting worse. In a way human rights is a
victim of a power struggle. The more we see the power struggle,
human rights violations become more serious. We have many arbitrary
detentions. This past week we have a 70 years old political activist
who brought a letter to the President, to the Speaker of Parliament
talking about 441 days in solitary confinement and incommunicado
talking about how he was tortured, why he was imprisoned. In 2000
he had two heart attacks because he was under torture. He was
forced to write confessions. We have never had this before. Human
rights is becoming a victim of power struggle in Iran.
Chairman: May I thank you for this valuable
session. Thank you both very much for coming.
The Committee suspended from 4.45
pm to 4.55 pm for a division in the House
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