Examination of Witnesses (Questions 400-419)
MR ANDREW
GILLIGAN AND
MR MARK
DAMAZER
19 JUNE 2003
Q400 Chairman: Clearly what he told
you on this occasion by definition was not authorised.
Mr Gilligan: It is simply impossible
for me to know whether it was authorised or not. That was not
a question I discussed with him.
Q401 Chairman: But the Chairman of
the JIC has repudiated what you have said.
Mr Gilligan: The Chairman of the
JIC. The Joint Intelligence Committee is not the same thing as
the intelligence agencies. I mean, they are represented on it,
of course, but the Chairman of the JIC is a civil servant not
an intelligence official.
Q402 Chairman: Well, all the civil
servants.
Mr Gilligan: He is a civil servant
in the non-secret part of the civil service as distinct from the
secret part.
Q403 Andrew Mackinlay: Not so secret,
though.
Mr Gilligan: Not so secret, no.
Q404 Chairman: Are you aware of anyone
within the services who has complained at what has been published?
Mr Gilligan: Complained to us?
Q405 Chairman: No, complained through
any formal channels to their line management.
Mr Gilligan: No, but I would not
expect to be. I am aware of disquiet within the intelligence community
over the Government's handling of intelligence material related
to Iraq, not just on this particular issue of the September 24
dossier but on others.
Q406 Chairman: From this one individual?
Mr Gilligan: No, from several
individuals. From a total of four different people.
Q407 Chairman: Four different people.
And these are individuals who see you from time to time.
Mr Gilligan: That is right.
Q408 Chairman: Contrary to their
terms of engagement.
Mr Gilligan: Not all.
Q409 Chairman: So some are allowed
by the agencies to speak to you about their concerns about government.
Mr Gilligan: When we meet, we
never quite discuss things like whether the meeting is contrary
to their terms of engagement or not.
Q410 Chairman: But you know it is,
surely, if they tell—
Mr Gilligan: Assumptions are made.
Q411 Chairman: If they tell a press
officer that there has been undue interference, this must surely
be contrary to any terms of engagement of a public servant.
Mr Gilligan: In my experience,
the intelligence agencies do sometimes do things in a calculated
fashion, and maybe some of these contacts were such contacts.
Q412 Chairman: In a calculated fashion.
Mr Gilligan: They are not unlike
any other part of government, in that they sometimes want to get
a message across.
Q413 Andrew Mackinlay: That is rather
making Reid's point, is it not? Rogue elements.
Mr Gilligan: No, I do not think
it does.
Q414 Andrew Mackinlay: I am sorry
to interrupt but it just occurred to me. Reid came into my mind
then.
Mr Gilligan: I do not think you
should assume that these are necessarily rogue elements. I do
not think that has entered into it.
Q415 Chairman: You think they are
doing a public service, do you, by leaking their views to you?
Mr Gilligan: I have no opinion
on what they do to me; I am just grateful for the information
as a journalist.
Q416 Chairman: Grateful for the information.
Mr Gilligan: Yes.
Q417 Mr Maples: I wonder if we can
just establish not who these people are, because I am sure you
are not going to tell us that, but where they are coming from.
I have been looking at the transcripts of your appearances on
the Today programme, May 29 and June 4. On May 29 you started
by saying, "I have spoken to a British official who was involved
in the preparation of the dossier," and you say, "I
want to stress that this official and others I have spoken to
. . ." Then on June 4 you say that, while the quotes came
from a single source,". . . four people over the last six
months in or connected with the intelligence community have expressed
concern . . ." etcetera. What I want to try to establish
is: are these people all, or are some of them, actually currently
working in one of the intelligence agencies? Or, when you say
a British official, do you mean someone in No 10 or on the JIC
assessments staff? Could you try to establish where these sources
are coming from?
Mr Gilligan: First, I want to
make the distinction between the specific source for this specific
story, which is a single source, and the three other people who
have spoken to me generally of their concern about Downing Street's
use of intelligence material over the last six months. They spoke
to me about the allegations made of links between Saddam and al-Qaeda.
They spoke to me about the so-called "dodgy dossier",
the one produced in February, and they spoke to me about this
dossier. The story that began the fuss came from the single source.
I really cannot characterise the source any further than I already
have done because it would compromise him.
Q418 Mr Maples: No further than that
he is a British official. I think it makes a huge difference to
us to know how much credibility to attach to this. If it was somebody
who actually works in SIS or on the JIC assessments staff involved
in this, that is clearly one thing, but if it is somebody telling
you some office gossip, that a few people up there are unhappy
about this, that is clearly different to us. When you say "a
British official"—and this is presumably the person
who gave you the 45-minute story—can you not tell us which
part of the Government that person works in?
Mr Gilligan: I have described
him as one of the senior officials in charge of drawing up the
dossier and I can tell you that he is a source of longstanding,
well-known to me, closely connected with the question of Iraq's
weapons of mass destruction, easily sufficiently senior and credible
to be worth reporting
Mr Maples: Could you say that again:
an official of longstanding involved in . . .?
Q419 Chairman: A source of longstanding.
Mr Gilligan: A source of longstanding
and I described him in the broadcast as one of the senior officials
in charge of drawing up the dossier. That is how I would leave
it.
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