Examination of Witnesses (Questions 120-128)
TUESDAY 10 DECEMBER 2002
ANNE OWERS,
CBE
Mr Cameron
120. It is in your hands. You do the inspection
and then you have to produce the report. If you are trying to
do too many inspections and as a result are not producing a report,
that is your fault.
(Ms Owers) The production of a report is entirely
down to us and that is, as you say, a question of management and
resources. Up until now the decision on when to publish the report
has not been ours.
Chairman
121. Whose has that been?
(Ms Owers) That has followed a letter from the Director
General of the Prison Service to the Home Secretary saying he
is content for the report to be published.
122. What is there to stop the Director General
dragging his feet?
(Ms Owers) There have been gaps and delays certainly
while messages have gone to and from. What I have now agreed in
the new protocol is that at the point we produce the draft report
I will set a date for publication, which will normally be about
eight weeks later, which gives the Prison Service the chance to
comment on any factual inaccuracies they believe there to be,
us the chance to respond and the report to get into the public
domain. The date for publication will be set by us and it will
be very clear.
123. Presumably there are attempts by the Prison
Service to get the reports revised and that takes some time, does
it?
(Ms Owers) Sometimes there can be a reasonably lengthy
exchange of correspondence, but quite often it is simply drift;
no-one was responsible under the old protocol. There were no time
lines under the old protocol between the report being agreed and
it being published and there was no clear definition of who was
responsible and who decided. Under the new protocol it is quite
clear.
124. Am I right in thinking that children's
detention centres do not come under you? Is that the Social Services
Inspectorate or is that you as well?
(Ms Owers) We do children's prisons, but not secure
training centres and local authority secure units.
125. What is Hassockfield near Consett?
(Ms Owers) Not one of mine.
126. What do you say to the suggestion that
the private sector sometimes cherry-picks the best governors from
the state sector in order to win the contracts?
(Ms Owers) To be honest it is not something which
has come my way as such. The idea that the private sector is very
careful about which sites it will operate in certainly has, but
I have been less aware of the cherry-picking of governors, certainly
in my time.
127. In relation to Ashfield, for example, which
we were talking about a moment ago, when Premier lost the contract—I
may have this wrong and no doubt somebody will correct me if I
have—they took on a very successful governor from Swansea
prison, the state sector, won back the contract and as a result
Premier's gain is Swansea's loss, is the suggestion.
(Ms Owers) Yes, I suppose that is true, but while
you have private prisons they will always be in competition for
governors. It is almost inevitable, is it not?
David Winnick
128. Reverting to my first questions at the
beginning of our session, do you feel in carrying out your duties,
and bearing in mind what has happened before you took up your
appointment, that this Committee can play any part in assisting
you?
(Ms Owers) Undoubtedly. This Committee's interest
in and monitoring of what goes on in prisons is essential. On
the issues of accountability and responsibility in my role, I
report to the Home Secretary but I place my annual report before
Parliament and I see Parliament as being the right place where
these issues of policy which affect the work I do are properly
debated. I am always very reluctant to comment on matters of policy
because I feel that it is more appropriate for me to comment as
trenchantly as I can on the consequences of that policy as I see
it operating in prisons. If that does not inform a proper debate
in this place, and I see this Committee having a key role in being
able to deal with that, then those proper debates will not happen.
David Winnick: I asked the question because
I myself—not necessarily my colleagues—have a sense
of guilt that we did not give sufficient support to your immediate
predecessor. Whether it would have been of any help at the end
of the day is another matter. Perhaps we will learn the lesson
from that.
Chairman: You have been extremely helpful.
Thank you very much for coming. We look forward to seeing you
again in the future. The session is closed.
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