Examination of Witnesses (Questions 160-179)
MR TOM
DAVIES AND
MR MICHAEL
PAYNE
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY 2003
Chairman
160. Good morning, gentlemen, and welcome. This
is the part of our inquiry into making removal more efficient
and more humane, those are the principal purposes. Can we begin
by you each stating where you come from and what your role in
all this is.
(Mr Payne) My name is Michael Payne and
I head the division of Wackenhut responsible for government services
and that encompasses three main contracts: one is the management
operation of Tinsley House Removal Centre at Gatwick Airport;
the second one is the in-country escorting contract which encompasses
a small removal short-term holding facility at Manchester Airport;
thirdly, the one contract we have with NASS is the assisting of
the Government's dispersal programme by the removing of asylum
seekers from London and the South-East to different parts of the
country. There are other aspects in relation to police custodial
and Customs & Excise and things like that but they are not
part of this inquiry.
(Mr Davies) I am Tom Davies; I am the Managing Director
of Loss Prevention International and we provide the overseas escorting
service for the Immigration Service which effectively is the escorting
of all special needs returnees back to their countries of origin.
Miss Widdecombe
161. Given that there is widespread agreement
between pretty well all shapes of politics that one of the biggest
problems is the number of removals and that it bears no relation
at all to the number of refusals and given the increasing pressure
for results, how far would you find it practical to deal with
a large increase in the number of removals, what would be the
problems and how far do you think you can go?
(Mr Payne) The immediate problem is to recognise that
we are a demand led organisation and the very fact that the resources
that we apply have been agreed in contractual manner with the
Immigration Service, we would need to know approximate numbers
of likely targets and then we could adjust the removal resources,
that is to say human resources and vehicular resources, of the
movements we undertake and there would need to be some physical
alterations to the premises at airports where detainees and deportees
are currently held because they are just not big enough to take
any more at the moment.
162. Given those constraints, could you remove
double the number you remove at the moment, treble, quadruple?
(Mr Payne) We are a "can do" organisation
and I am sure that, given the right resources and the vehicles
and the premises, we could achieve that. Yes, I am sure.
163. Given that the premises is the longer term,
the Government have a removal target of 30,000; are the premises
adequate for that?
(Mr Payne) Not at the moment, no.
164. So, even if you were able to reach that
target, it would be physically impossible to deliver?
(Mr Payne) I think I would like to qualify
that remark by saying, as I said initially, that we are a "can
do" organisation and just because the premises at the moment
are not adequate, it does not mean to say that alternative premises
nearby could not be found.
165. How quickly could you do it?
(Mr Payne) I cannot answer that at the moment because
I have not conducted an investigation into that particular question.
166. What I am trying to tease out of you beyond
all the ifs and buts is that there is a widespread recognition
that we need to increase removals but if the Government were to
say to you that they wanted their removal target actually met
or that they wanted to increase that target, how quickly would
you be able to respond to that? I take it that you could not do
it in five minutes, but roughly how quickly?
(Mr Payne) I think you would need to ask the authority
that question because I suspect that the matter would have to
go out to public tender as opposed to just increasing our contract.
If you are saying that you want to increase our contract to that
sort of number, it would not be done in five minutes, I accept,
because we have to go through a recruiting and training process.
All our officers go through a four week induction course to start
off with followed by a period of shadowing more senior members
of staff to equate themselves with the tasks at hand.
167. And at the moment you do not have the facilities
even to reach the target?
(Mr Payne) Not 30,000, no.
168. Why is it necessary to move people between
their homes and removal centres and then the airports early in
the morning and late at night? Can you just talk us through the
rationale.
(Mr Payne) As I indicated a few moments ago, we are
charged with the responsibility of moving those people signalled
for deportation by the Immigration Service and we adapt to and
follow their instructions. It is a matter of fact that flights
to certain parts of the world take place in the early morning
and late evening and if those are the times of the flights to
destinations that the deportees are scheduled to take, then that
is the time they have to be moved.
169. Can you tell me what proportion are actually
moved at those hours rather than during the ordinary day?
(Mr Payne) No, I have not come with those figures.
170. Would you be able to provide such figures?
(Mr Payne) If you gave me a list of the destinations,
the answer is "yes". It is a simple checking process
to find which detainees are going to which countries and at what
times.
171. Can you also comment on how often and why
people are removed from their homes and are not given time to
collect their possessions.
(Mr Payne) That is not a matter on which I am qualified
to answer.
172. Why not?
(Mr Payne) Because it is a decision we do not make.
We go to the premises; we are charged by the Immigration Service
to effect a removal.
173. But when you are effecting the removal,
why can you not give the person time to pack their bags?
(Mr Payne) I am sorry, at the moment we do not go
to houses. We go to a variety of different detention establishments
and police stations. We actually do not go to houses at the moment.
Chairman
174. Who does?
(Mr Payne) It is the police and the Immigration Service.
Mr Prosser
175. Mr Payne, I think Miss Widdecombe was talking
about the current targets of 30,000 removals and you have explained
the limitations in your resources etc to meet that at present.
What sort of discussions were taking place between you and the
Government during the time that the target was 30,000 and that
target was public for a period of more than 12 months?
(Mr Payne) We dealt with the matters at hand. As I
said, we are a demand led organisation who respond to the challenges
and tenders put out by the Immigration Service. We did not have
any sort of strategic discussions with regard to efficiency of
targets.
176. Was there not a temptation to say, "Minister,
you have set a target for removals of 30,000. We are the main
removal agency and we do not have anywhere near the capability
of doing that"?
(Mr Payne) We were not asked for that opinion.
Miss Widdecombe
177. You did not think of volunteering it? You
did not think, when the target was announced, of saying, "Hang
on, this is not feasible"?
(Mr Payne) I do not think it was our prerogative to
do that.
178. You were being asked to deliver the contract.
(Mr Payne) The contract, at the time of the contract
agreement, was nothing like 30,000. There have been extensions
to the contract but not in relation to those sort of numbers.
179. Are you saying—and I do not want
to paraphrase you too much—that, when the target was announced,
the necessary inquiries then from Government to you about enlarging
the contract did not follow?
(Mr Payne) Absolutely.
| 
