Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220-239)
MR TOM
DAVIES AND
MR MICHAEL
PAYNE
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY 2003
220. Can I turn to the use of charter flights.
We understand that, on some occasions, that is very costly, but
can you ever see a day when charter flights in removal can be
cost-effective?
(Mr Payne) We had that responsibility until relatively
recently but that responsibility is now transferred to LPI, so
it is probably appropriate for Tom to answer that question.
(Mr Davies) I think you can group charters into two
areas. The executive jet charter perhaps is the one you were thinking
about and the latest case in point was the removal to Lagos in
Nigeria of the lady who was a strong suspect in the Adam, boy
in the water, torso in the Thames, case. They are expensive. Weekly,
we are currently removing—and have been doing so since April
2000—Kosovans and Albanians back to the Balkans using Boeing
737s. I have no responsibility for the chartering of the aircraft;
that is done by the Removals Co-ordination Unit at Croydon. I
can tell you however that, per head, the cost of removing an Albanian
or a Kosovan back using the charter compared to taking them escorted
through Rome or Bucharest, which are the options that are open
to us, is one-tenth of that using a scheduled aircraft. It is
cost-effective, there is no doubt about that, from my viewpoint
certainly and, if we are looking at numbers, definitely.
221. So what you are telling us is that when
it is one small group or family being transported in a small plane,
it is cost effective?
(Mr Davies) That is correct.
222. In your opinion, is it more humane to use
charter flights?
(Mr Davies) Absolutely because we have been successfully
removing people, as I have said, back routinely to the Balkans
taking women, children, people who want to go back who are ill
and single males and the whole thing is done without being in
the public eye. Therefore, the whole temperature of the operation
is reduced considerably from our viewpoint.
223. Is that view shared by Wackenhut?
(Mr Payne) Yes, it is. We think it is cost effective
from our point of view because, particularly in the family situation
which involves the transportation of a family to the airport because
if that, for any reason whatsoever, is frustrated, the whole situation
revolves and starts again. So, the removal by charter flight is
definitely cost effective.
Chairman
224. Although of course it depends on you being
able to accumulate a sufficient number of people at the same stage
in the process and that can only be done in the case of a few
nationalities, can it not, presumably?
(Mr Davies) Broadly speaking, yes.
225. Am I right in thinking that a lot of Kosovans
turn out to be from Albania proper?
(Mr Davies) I would think that 85% of the people we
are removing who claim to be Kosovan on their asylum claims and
their documentation held by IND in this country turn out to be
Albanians.
226. At what point do you find that out?
(Mr Davies) On the aircraft or actually just before
they board the aircraft and we now have transit arrangements in
place in Pristina to move these people back into Albania through
Kosovo once we land in Pristina.
227. 85%?
(Mr Davies) Roughly 85%, yes.
228. Has that happened in relation to any other
nationality?
(Mr Davies) It is not uncommon with West Africans
and some of the East Africans.
229. Who are you saying the West Africans claim
they are and who do they turn out to be?
(Mr Davies) A number come to this country in the knowledge
that they claim to be Moldovian or from some of the more difficult
countries in West Africa and they actually turn out to be Ghanian
or Nigerian. As far as West Africa is concerned, you can go down
into South West Africa and the same applies there with Angolans,
people from the Democratic Republic of the Congo and the same
in East Africa. Let me work across: into Central Africa, you have
the Rwanda/Burundi problem; quite a number of people claim to
be Burundian or Rwandan and in fact they are actually either Ugandan
or Tanzanian. The same across into East Africa with Somalis or
Kenyans claiming to be Somalian. It is not uncommon.
230. Again, you tend to find that out at the
last moment?
(Mr Davies) As far as we are concerned, it happens
quite rarely that we are presented with a situation like this
at Lagos Airport, for instance, and they get there and they claim
to be something else. It is not a frequent thing as far as we
are concerned other than on the Albanian charter flight.
Mr Clappison
231. Just to clarify this, you are taking the
people back on the basis that they are Kosovans, this 85%, and
it is believed that they are Kosovans until they get on to the
plane.
(Mr Davies) Absolutely.
232. So these people are down as Kosovan asylum
seekers and you are told that they are Kosovans but it turns out
that they are in fact Albanians and the same applies with the
Africans.
(Mr Davies) With the Africans, no, and perhaps I did
not make myself quite so clear. You find it with the Africans.
We are obviously only taking Africans back on scheduled aircraft,
so we are dealing with singles or small family groups. It does
happen but it is not a frequent thing. It is a frequent thing,
a weekly occurrence, on the charter flights back to Kosovo.
David Winnick
233. Have you been removing many Algerians?
(Mr Davies) Yes, we do.
234. Have there been more in the last few months?
(Mr Davies) I can give you last year's statistics
if you want to know how many we removed into Algeria or how many
times we went back to Algeria last year. We actually, on an escorted
removal basis, in 2002 went into Algeria on 17 occasions, so roughly
17 people. However, those are only the escorted removals. There
will have been people removed to Algeria on a voluntary removal
basis and what those figures are I have no idea.
Chairman
235. Going back to Wackenhut's evidence, you
said that no central body oversees the bookings for the airlines
resulting in airlines refusing to carry deportees because the
number of immigration related seats on any particular flight exceeds
agreed levels or that the person arranging the flight has wrongly
classified the passenger and that all public expense tickets are
subject to approval from Croydon and that this unit is not available
outside office hours and, when payment has not been authorised
from the booking on the airline's computer system, tickets cannot
be released. That leads to problems, does it not?
(Mr Payne) It does happen, yes.
236. Frequently?
(Mr Payne) That is a much used word this morning.
237. It is.
(Mr Payne) There are a number of occasions.
238. Do you think that unit should be manned
outside of office hours? Would that solve the problem?
(Mr Payne) It certainly would solve the problem of
not being able to corroborate the payment situation but, whether
it is cost effective, I am not in a position to say.
239. But you would like to see that happen anyway?
(Mr Payne) Certainly.
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