Examination of Witnesses (Questions 260-279)
MR TOM
DAVIES AND
MR MICHAEL
PAYNE
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY 2003
260. Yes, but your job, if we are strictly legal
about it, only means that you take an interest until the moment
you have to hand them over. We are all human beings and I expect
that we are curious about what happens to people. We are sending
people back to some rather bad places sometimes, are we not?
(Mr Davies) I think the best way of answering that
is that I think there is a perception that everything in the countries
that we are removing to is bad. It is not necessarily the case.
In the majority of the cases, they are indifferent. They really
have little or no interest in the individuals we are actually
taking back.
261. Have you ever known something bad to happen
to someone you have handed over?
(Mr Davies) We have heard allegations in the past
which have been refuted. I can think of one about four years ago
when there was a very high-profile Nigerian gentleman in this
country who was removed back to Nigeria and it was claimed in
the press that he had been killed within X number of hours. I
think, ma'am, you were the minister at the time.
Miss Widdecombe
262. I was.
(Mr Davies) That turned out to be total rubbish. He
reappeared again three months later.
Chairman
263. A lot can happen in three months.
(Mr Davies) Yes, but somebody does not resurrect themselves!
264. I am with you on that point. The Congo,
for example; do you take people back to the Congo?
(Mr Davies) Yes, we do.
265. What happens there?
(Mr Davies) I say, "Yes, we do", but, at
the moment, we are not taking them back to the Congo because we
have documentation difficulties with the authorities here because
they are claiming that they have the inability, as a result of
the sacking of their birth records in the country, to verify the
nationality of people claiming to be Congolese. We have taken
people back to the Congo in the past and, to be perfectly frank,
my officers suffer far worse than the detainees do. We have come
through a lot of flack in the Congo. It is quite dangerous.
266. What kind of flack?
(Mr Davies) From the authorities; they threatened
us to the extent that one of my female officers was threatened
with a gun.
267. Why?
(Mr Davies) They just do not want to see us. They
are overtly hostile to the removal process.
268. Is your view that we really should not
be sending people back to the Congo?
(Mr Davies) It is our people that are at risk; the
detainees are just handed straight over and they walk away from
it.
269. How do you know that they walk away from
it?
(Mr Davies) We have watched them doing it.
270. You have watched them walking away through
the airport?
(Mr Davies) Yes.
271. Apparently to collect their bags or whatever?
(Mr Davies) Or whatever.
272. Do people who are sent back have travel
documents? I appreciate that many of them will have destroyed
their travel documents on arrival. Is any attempt made to get
them travel documents once it is agreed that they are going home?
(Mr Davies) We are not involved in that. That is the
responsibility of the case handling port handling the individual
concerned and the documentation unit in Croydon. To answer your
question directly, many go back with out of date passports obviously
for the nationality that they are, many go back with valid passports
or other documentation to support their nationality which is supported
by a European Union travel document.
273. The country at the other end obviously
does want to be convinced that you are returning its citizens.
The Chinese are quite rigorous on this point, are they not?
(Mr Davies) All people we return to China are documented
by the Chinese Embassy here in London prior to removal.
274. And, so far as you know, the Chinese authorities
co-operate in that?
(Mr Davies) They are slow but they co-operate.
275. Is any assistance given to someone being
sent back to their country? If they are not feigning persecution,
they are destitute, are they not?
(Mr Davies) Frankly, the numbers we have removed that
are destitute are limited. My officers have a remit to ensure
that the people we are removing have at least sufficient money
to get them out of the airport and into some form of transport
back to where they are going and it is not unusual for us to be
handing 20 or multiples of 20 dollar bills to individuals to assist
them in that process.
276. Is that something you do out of the goodness
of your hearts or is it something that the Home Office funds?
(Mr Davies) Effectively, it is funded within the contract.
I have a small travel budget within the contract and we pay for
it.
277. Could we do more in that regard in your
view?
(Mr Davies) I think that could be an almost dangerous
procedure because, if it became public knowledge that everybody
going back were to, say, have X hundred pounds, everybody would
suddenly become destitute. The numbers of the destitute are actually
quite limited, in my experience. We have taken back people with
more money than I have ever seen in cash.
278. Yes, I am sure of that but, equally, I
have a number of dispersed asylum seekers in my own constituency
and they call at my office at the rate of about three a day and
some of them are undoubtedly destitute.
(Mr Davies) It is a difficult judgment call.
(Mr Payne) If I could add to that, I am aware that
the Immigration Service—I do not whether have a budget for
it—are compassionate in that regard. There have been several
occasions where they give to, you used the word "destitute",
detainees sufficient funds to get them from the port of arrival
to their home village.
279. I think of Hong Kong and the boat people.
Hong Kong operate probably one of the most ruthless repatriation
schemes seen in recent years but even they put money in their
pockets when they carried them with tightly bound hands and foot
onto the plane back to Vietnam and it always seemed to me that
we ought at least to be able to improve on that.
(Mr Davies) Certainly from our viewpoint, we would
never allow anybody to get off an aircraft with no money in their
pocket. By far the majority of them have funds of one level or
another.
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