Examination of Witnesses (Questions 280-300)
MR TOM
DAVIES AND
MR MICHAEL
PAYNE
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY 2003
280. Are there any changes that you would like
to see to see the escorting system made more efficient and more
humane?
(Mr Davies) May I answer the last question first.
From my experience as far as being humane is concerned, it would
undoubtedly be seen to be more humane to remove more people on
chartered aircraft because it can be done out of the public eye.
There is stress caused to any detainee, no matter how hard we
try, carrying them on a scheduled airliner, particularly if they
are escorted. As far as being more efficient is concerned, Michael
mentioned in his evidence statement, my belief is that we should
have one unit within IND dealing with this. We are moving now
towards that over the last seven or eight months as far as we
are concerned, but it would undoubtedly be a lot more efficient
from the special needs cases to have the case transferred to that
central removals unit and they handle the whole affair and deal
with us or whoever else is dealing with it.
281. Who is dealing with it now? How is it dealt
with at the moment?
(Mr Davies) It is currently the port dealing with
an individual and perhaps if I use Mr Prosser's constituency as
it is one of the high-profile constituencies. Dover will be dealing
with an individual who becomes removable. They make that decision
that the individual has become removable. The judgment is made
by Dover as to whether or not they feel the person will go voluntarily,
in which case he is asked to sign a dispensation document, or
that he requires escorting. I will confine my comments to the
person requiring to be escorted. The port then applies to the
Detainee Escorting and Population Management Unit using a certain
series of Immigration Service forms requesting escorts. We then
receive that request in our operations centre and we will allocate
escorts based on the initial risk assessment and, if my co-ordinators
are not satisfied, with discussions with the port updating the
risk assessment and we will tell them when we can actually get
the slot as far as my people are concerned, the availability to
remove the person. If there is a conflict or the person has been
in detention for a while, there is another unit involved which
is the Management of Detained Cases Unit which is based in Leeds,
which is a new unit which is leaning towards my centralisation
policy. There is another unit if there is a conflict on priority.
For instance, I say to Dover, "I cannot remove this person
until the end of February based on the availability of my officers"
and Dover say, "We want him removed now", that has to
be referred to the Removals Co-ordination Unit. So, effectively,
you have a bit of a circle and, frankly, a straight line would
be a lot more efficient.
David Winnick
282. Mr Davies, you reminded us about the Nigerian
who it was said had died and it was then found otherwise. If I
could take you up not only on that particular reply you gave but
on your general response. Do you think there is a sort of propaganda
campaign in the United Kingdom to give the impression that a good
number of those who are sent back are in danger of their lives?
(Mr Davies) It exists, certainly, in our perception.
Our officers read the newspapers and I read the newspapers and
you see newspaper reports of people being mistreated, like the
Nigerian case and we know that is blatant rubbish.
283. Leaving mistreatment in the United Kingdom
as far as abroad is concerned, you said "yes", that
there is a propaganda campaign. Would you like to give your view
or impression as to where this originates from.
(Mr Davies) I honestly do not know.
284. Do you believe that there are certain individuals
or organisations in the United Kingdom who are very pro-asylum
and therefore want to give the impression that sending people
back could lead to their death?
(Mr Davies) Other than the people who are quoted in
the newspapers, I have had no direct contact or experience with
them other than what is published in the press.
285. From the time that your own organisation
has been involved, you are satisfied that those who have been
sent back have not been in any physical danger?
(Mr Davies) Yes.
Chairman
286. Do we remove people to Turkey?
(Mr Davies) Yes.
287. Do we get co-operation with the Turkish
authorities?
(Mr Davies) Again, in the majority of cases—and
it is by far the majority of cases—the Turkish authorities
are basically indifferent as to the reasons why the individual
has been returned. The Turks actually take them away so I cannot
comment about seeing people out on the airport at Istanbul. They
really have no interest with us as to why the individual has been
removed back to Turkey.
288. We remove them to Turkey because they are
Turks and not because they are Iraqi Kurds, presumably; they are
Turkish Kurds.
(Mr Davies) That is my understanding. Last year, sir,
it was our top destination!
289. What, Turkey was?
(Mr Davies) Yes.
290. Who are the people you were sending back?
Were they Turkish Kurds?
(Mr Davies) Yes, Turkish Kurds in general.
291. Iraqi Kurds?
(Mr Davies) Not to my knowledge, no.
292. Gentlemen, are there any other points that
you would like to put to us that you have not had an opportunity
so to do in relation to removals? We are going to come to detention
centres in a minute and I think Mr Payne is staying with us for
that. Am I right, Mr Payne?
(Mr Payne) Yes, sir.
293. Mr Davies, is there anything that you would
like to mention?
(Mr Davies) I think that the only point I would make
to you, sir, which is perhaps an aside point, is the question—and
Michael mentioned it—of the training and the professionalism
of the people we use to undertake these duties. I personally worry
about the press perception that, because it is a private sector
operation, we are using second-grade, untrained individuals, which
I think we are all aware is something that is generally cast towards
the security industry in this country.
294. Just remind us again of the training procedure.
(Mr Davies) Our people go through quite a rigorous
assessment process before we even consider employing them, which
lasts one day and it is effectively based on personality, psychometric
testing, their communication skills and other abilities. They
then go into a 22 day training process which covers their legal
responsibilities, human rights aspects of training, control and
restraint and escort procedures. In addition to that, they get
15 days' training within their operational cycles through the
year. They are probably some of the most highly trained people
in this country, certainly as far as control and restraint techniques
are concerned. Also, first-aid training; they all get comprehensive
first-aid training.
295. Is there a high turnover of your staff
in this area? It is quite a stressful job.
(Mr Davies) I have a very low turnover; my retention
is about 96%.
296. Retention over what period?
(Mr Davies) My retention of staff.
297. Over what period?
(Mr Davies) We have been undertaking contract removals
for the Government for three years and, over that period, I can
tell you that I have lost six people.
298. That is very impressive. Mr Payne, just
on training—and I think you did touch on it in your earlier
evidence—can you remind us what training your staff receive
for the in-country escorts.
(Mr Payne) There is, as Tom has rightly indicated,
an induction process pre-recruitment, but then they undergo a
four week training process which includes first-aid and control
and restraint training. There follows a period of what we call
"shadowing" where the probationary recruit will accompany
a more senior member of staff for at least two weeks as part and
parcel of that training process.
299. Is there a high turnover of staff?
(Mr Payne) I have not come with figures for the escorting
contract but what I can say to you is that we have had the contract
for the Tinsley House Removal Centre for seven years and we still
have on the staff 25% of those who were there on day one and I
have to say that we tend to be the recruiting agency for the Police,
the Prison Service, the Fire Service and the Ambulance Service
who then go into the public sector employment. I am just being
told that the escorting is just less than 17% annually, so it
is fairly good.
300. The turnover is about 17%?
(Mr Davies) Yes, annually.
Chairman: Thank you very much, gentlemen.
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