Examination of Witnesses (Questions 320-339)
MR DAVID
BANKS, MR
HERB NAHAPIET,
MR TREVOR
WILLIAMS AND
MR MICHAEL
PAYNE
TUESDAY 28 JANUARY 2003
320. Is it your impression, Mr Williams, that
the system is getting more efficient?
(Mr Williams) I think undoubtedly it is getting more
efficient, but, inevitably, as the immigration services attempt
to go to scale on the targets, more and more logistical problems
are cropping up in a bigger organisation, and it may seem, from
time to time, that actually we are going backwards rather than
forwards. I do think there is plenty of anecdotal evidence around
that the overall position is improving, not to say that there
are not, as you have heard from other colleagues, a number of
logistical setbacks on occasions. I guess that is the point of
the Committee's interest.
321. We tend to hear a lot about logistical
setbacks; what I was looking for was the big picture.
(Mr Banks) Certainly we are experiencing greater activity
in terms of the throughput of detainees through our centres.
322. So the answer is yes? Do not be afraid
to say yes.
(Mr Banks) Yes, I guess so, is the inference there,
if people are actually moving through the centres quicker.
(Mr Nahapiet) We are only a small part of the mosaic
so it is difficult to see the big picture, but certainly from
our perspective there are more people being removed, there is
no question about that, and that has increased over the last twelve
months.
323. So the system is working better?
(Mr Nahapiet) There are more people being removed.
324. I do not want you to say it is wonderful,
I just want—
(Mr Nahapiet) There are certainly more people being
removed, there is no question about that.
Mr Singh
325. To move on to vulnerable people, vulnerable
people really should not be detained according to the criteria
but we have evidence that has been submitted to us that more vulnerable
people are being detained. Is that correct, in your experience?
By "vulnerable people" I mean people who might have
special needs, women, children and people with mental health problems.
Is that correct, in your experience?
(Mr Payne) I think, by reason of definition, you are
alluding to the question of families. Families previously were
not detained as such. We were the first centre that had family
accommodation provided. Initially we had one family suite and
we now have five, and certainly Trevor will allude to the fact
that at Dungavel they have a number more than that in terms of
family accommodation. So what you say in relation to families
is an accurate statement, there are more families being detained.
We previously were, essentially, a centre for single people, both
male and female.
326. Any other comments?
(Mr Banks) I think we recognise that certainly, from
time to time, we do have vulnerable detainees within the centre,
including detainees who may be deemed to be at risk of suicide
or self-harm, and what-have-you. What we do is try to ensure that
our staff and our training is designed to cope with and provide
for those detainees; a comprehensive training undertaken by all
detention custody officers, supported by trained professionals
from our medical providers and supported by our vetting procedures
and our procedures for childcare, developed in conjunction with
the NSPCC. So we certainly recognise that we do, from time to
time, have to deal with vulnerable detainees and certainly we
have extensive procedures to actually deal with that eventuality,
to ensure that they are dealt with appropriately.
327. What are the effects of detention on, especially,
children and, maybe, vulnerable adults? Is there a difference
between them in your centres and, perhaps, Dungavel which is in
a very isolated spot in the country? Are there noticeable effects,
and is there any difference between your centres and Dungavel?
(Mr Williams) Can I just respond to your earlier question?
Within the time-frame of our operation, which is only about 18
months, I do not think there has been any discernible change in
the pattern of vulnerability. Sometimes it is quite difficult
to detect whether that vulnerability stems from some predetermined
circumstance or whether it was the act of detention that has caused
the special need and the distress in the individual. It is by
no means clear to us, in all cases, whether that is the case or
not. In terms of the specific question about the opportunities
for minors who are detained in family units, our experience is
that it is quite often a very positive experience, albeit in a
very unfortunate circumstance. So our commitment, for instance,
to providing primary school education which pretty well matches
the national Scottish curriculum is an example of where we are
trying to normalise that regime for children and young people
who have, perhaps, been living a life of quite indeterminate nature.
So it provides, rather ironically, a period of stability for some
of the children and young people in our care.
(Mr Banks) Clearly we try and look after vulnerable
detainees in accordance with best practice and to the best of
our ability. If one is to actually answer the question "What
is the effect of detention on vulnerable detainees", I think
we are only dealing with a part of the process. There is a sense
in which one needs to understand what was the situation before
and what is the situation during and after? We can only really
deal with the situation whilst they are in detention rather than
having a complete view as to the actual impact of detention on
the detainees, be that a short-term impact or, indeed, a long-term
impact.
328. Do you see any visible signs of deterioration
in either physical health or mental health when you receive people?
(Mr Banks) No.
(Mr Payne) I think it ought to be pointed out that
every detainee that comes into a centre is the subject of an induction
process and that process does include a medical examination—a
short one—by a doctor or nurse, followed by a further one
from a doctor if necessary, depending upon the analysis of the
first examination.
329. There is not a medical check when they
leave?
(Mr Payne) Indeed, yes.
330. There is?
(Mr Payne) Yes. Not always. The contractual requirements
are changing at the moment to make that due process. Certainly
everybody who comes into the centre is the subject of a medical
check.
331. In future people who leave the centre will
be subject to a medical check?
(Mr Payne) I am led to believe so, yes.
332. So we may have more information in future
about the effects of detention on health?
(Mr Payne) Yes, but the detainee does not have to—it
is not compulsory. So your results may be spasmodic.
333. You may all want to answer this and you
may have different procedures, but if a detainee has a complaint
how do they exercise that complaint? What do they do?
(Mr Williams) The detention centre rules allow for
three main avenues of complaint within the system: one to the
centre manager internally (to the contractor, effectively); one
to the on-site Home Officer monitor and one to the Visiting Committee.
As we have described earlier, they have pretty well unlimited
access to legal advisers and community support groups. Those are
the main avenues of complaint. Our own experience at Dungavel
is, I think, that in 15 to 18 months of operations we have had
12 complaints about the operation of the centre to the centre
manager. So that is, I think, some indication of the general tone
of satisfaction, if I can use that word, from the point of view
of detainees. It is also true that they have a very continuous
process of complaint against the immigration services who are
dealing with their case. So the main focus of detainees' activity
is towards the immigration services rather than us as an operation.
(Mr Banks) I would endorse those comments in terms
of complaints procedure. Each centre has a comprehensive grievance
procedure. It really starts as soon as the detainee arrives with
informing them of what the system is, so they are very, very well
aware that they have the right to complain and they are actually
given information as to how to do that; information is displayed
throughout the centre and the information is available in appropriate
languages. So that is where the procedure starts. Our experience
is that the majority of complaints or grievances are dealt with
by the staff themselves. So in the day-to-day interaction between
detainees and staff, if there are minor issues they are very much
resolved in just the day-to-day operation of that management.
Then there are complaints procedures that follow up through our
own management structures within the centre, and the independent
structures through Visiting Committees and the Immigration Department.
334. They are not dealt with, I presume, by
a clip round the ear?
(Mr Banks) They certainly are not dealt with by a
clip round the ear. In fact, it is an important source of management
information as much as anything to have a healthy environment
of complaints and grievances.
335. How do you deal with the dietary needs
of detainees? Coming from a very wide range of countries, maybe
with different cultural backgrounds, how well are your staff trained,
for example, to deal with Muslims who are fasting or other disciplines?
(Mr Nahapiet) We are very fortunate, actually, at
Harmondsworth where over 40% of our staff come from ethnic backgrounds,
which is quite a high proportion. That includes those in the kitchen.
In fact, I was in the kitchen last week and there was a wonderful
spice cupboard. I was quite envious. So I think it is about understanding
what the cultural needs are, and of course our staff hopefully
understand that. There are surveys to find out what people want,
there is a choice on the menu and whenever I go I always try and
eat there because the food is very good and it is varied. There
is a choice. We have very, very few complaints about the food,
and we have a special diet for children as well. I think a lot
is done to make people feel at home, because food is a very important
element in many cultures—much more important than in the
UK probably. The meal is actually a central issue and the food
is quite important, so one has to focus on that. We find that
if you do get that right you are getting a lot of things right,
because if people have something which they eat and are satisfied
with it helps the whole process. So it is an important element
in that.
336. So is it easily dealt with?
(Mr Williams) I do not think it is easy and I do not
think Herb was indicating it is easy; I think it is an extremely
complex area, but it is a good example of where we are trying
to establish a very distinct regime from that of prisons. My professional
background is in prisons where the concept is generally about
providing the right rations in an orderly fashion, introducing
an element of choice and getting to the point where prisoners
are banged up quickly and efficiently. In removal centres the
emphasis, as Herb says, is much more about being a community activity;
we look for a lot of buy-in from our detainees, positive contributions
through the food committees and through voluntary assistants in
the kitchen; we run cookery classes and we run regular events
to demonstrate cultural diversity through diet; it is a real opportunity
for us to actually be a focal point for the regime. We have a
cafeteria-style, we do not limit supplies or indeed diets; generally
speaking our detainees can have what they want when they like,
and it acts as a community focal point. It is a very powerful
medium if it is managed properly.
(Mr Payne) I would like to corroborate that, if I
may. Certainly we use meal times as a point of social interaction
between the officers, the staff generally, the immigration service
and, indeed, the detainees. We all take our meals at the same
time—obviously, the logistics of any operation mean that
some continue to work—with members of staff eating at the
same time and, frequently, at the same tables to increase dynamic
security amongst the population at the centre. That has worked
very well for seven years. We act as though it were their home
and, indeed, do not ration portions; if somebody wants an extra
spoonful of rice or an extra piece of meat, we give it to them.
337. An extra spoonful of rice is not going
to go very far.
(Mr Payne) A comfortable tummy solves a lot of problems.
(Mr Banks) I would endorse what has been said. I would
add that normally there is a wide choice, normally six choices,
of breakfast, lunch and dinner, and meals approved by the local
Imam. We also have a detainee catering committee, which enables
good feedback from the detainees, and regular menu changes—menu
changes every month, for example. It is an area that we pay particular
attention to in the management of the centre.
338. I am pleased to hear that, gentlemen. Having
heard that I do not know why anybody wants to leave the community!
(Mr Nahapiet) I think that comes back to the point
that you made earlier about the effect of detention. I do not
get the impression that the actual detention is negative, because
when you go and see the children there they are having something
which is predictable, that is very comfortable, where the food
is good and they are getting good schooling. That is not what
causes the problems; what causes the problems is knowing, or not
knowing, what is going to happen to them. That is the real issue.
David Winnick
339. I have one or two questions. One or two
points have already been touched on. As far as detainees are concerned,
what is the position? Can they move around the centre? Is there
any difficulty about that?
(Mr Payne) No, there is total free association, except
during the small hours of the morning when they are restricted
to the bedroom corridors. There is no locking up of people in
their dormitories, they are entitled to roam the bedroom corridors,
and if they want to sit and play cards with colleagues from the
next room they sit and play cards. During the day time there is
total free association.
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