Examination of Witnesses (Questions 480-499)
MONDAY 18 NOVEMBER 2002
MR NICK
SPRINGHAM, MS
EVELYN ASANTE-MENSAH,
PROFESSOR MIKE
KELLY, MS
KAYE WELLINGS,
MR SIMON
BLAKE AND
MRS LINDSAY
ABBOTT
Jim Dowd
480. Down or out?
(Mrs Abbott) Down, not out. They are still here, they
are staying. That is really important, that they feel a bit more
comfortable in the classroom now about teaching it. Okay, sometimes
we share, we team teach, whatever, if it is certain things that
they are uncomfortable with but at least they are up there and
they are helping and they want to be part of it and they come
out of the lesson saying "I did not go quite so red today"
or "it was a lot better today" and that gives such a
good impression to the children. Quite rightly, if you are a teacher
in front of a class and you are not enthusiastic and committed
those children are just going to sit there and fall flat.
Andy Burnham
481. It is a non-denominational school?
(Mrs Abbott) Yes.
482. I think you agreed with the suggestion
from Mr Blake that it should be a statutory requirement on the
National Curriculum.
(Mrs Abbott) Totally.
483. What would you say to a catholic school
who would not want to deliver what you have just described? How
would you go about reconciling that?
(Mrs Abbott) In our school it is a Church of England
school and although we are still 85 per cent Muslim we do welcome
other faiths and I understand there are certain religious areas
that are quite delicate and they will not go the whole way. I
still think if you follow the government strategy, which I have
followed quite closely, and the SRE curriculum that you put forward
in 2000, there are things there that should be laid down and taught
in each and every school and that is such a way forward.
484. You have a high percentage of Muslim parents
and you have had no complaints at all?
(Mrs Abbott) No. It is so good, you see. Come and
see.
485. That is amazing.
(Mrs Abbott) I think we are very lucky. We come from
a very deprived area, Slough Chalvey, and we have got one of the
highest teenage pregnancy rates and a lot of refugees, a lot of
Asians, who are very, very deprived and they need it desperately.
In the homes very often the children do not get it and the parents
do not speak English. We can offer them so much in the school
and in the community, it is very much a community thing. I think
that is very, very important as well, that we have got community
backing.
(Mr Blake) Can I just add to that. Last year we took
away 20 people from different faiths as part of a Sex Education
Forum project, which included the Catholic Education Service and
the Church of England, and what they all agreed, and I would be
more than happy to send you a summary report of that, was in any
school they will be working within their strong moral and values
framework, their mission statement, but all children need to know
about the diversity of faiths, values and beliefs. In terms of
sex and relationships education, whilst a school would be encouraged
and supported to give their own perspective they would have an
entitlement to talk about different issues and perspectives.
486. In the Year 8 situation the Catholic Church
does not recognise contraception, so how would you teach that?
(Mr Blake) What they agreed was whilst learning about
contraception, which is part of science as well so everyone does
have to teach about contraception, you would actually be talking
about the Catholic perspective and understanding different views,
beliefs and perspectives.
Mr Burns
487. I personally have no problem with contraception
but I find it surprising that a Catholic education department
can agree or be happy with Catholic children being shown, even
if it is just on a factual basis, what a contraceptive does vis
a vis hygiene and other things because it must be a very narrow
line between giving a factual lesson on what a contraceptive is
and explaining why contraceptives are wonderful to stop you from
becoming pregnant or allowing you to have sexual intercourse most
of the time without conceiving.
(Mr Blake) The Catholic Education Service is a member
of the Sex Education Forum and they have worked with us for a
long time. I can send you the report which confirms this. What
people are saying, and parents are saying a similar thing, is
as long as they are sure that our perspective is going to be there
as part of a range of perspectives they are happy and comfortable
with that. Some of the best sex education in the country is in
Catholic schools which is broad based and across the range. Within
a Catholic school obviously predominance would be given to their
particular perspective. Picking up what Nick said earlier, sex
is social as well as biological, so in exploring the values, beliefs
and attitudes of different people and society's attitudes and
values that is where the discussion actually takes place and contraception
would be something which would be discussed.
Andy Burnham
488. Would you not have a situation possibly
if it was made statutory where the governors would be refusing
to implement what was in the curriculum?
(Mr Blake) My own personal perspective on that is
what people do is find ways of working at some point, so a statutory
curriculum which was across PSHE—we want to emphasise we
do not just want it to be statutory sex education but statutory
personal social health education across the gamut—would
be delivered and developed in partnership with the governors,
the parents and the pupils. With something like OFSTED, for example,
and in their report OFSTED have done learning outcomes at the
end, which I could leave with you, what would be done is the particular
moral, ethos and values of that school would be talked about and
included in the teaching of that area of the curriculum.
Mr Burns
489. There are groups of people in this country,
some of them because of their deeply held religious beliefs, some
of them for other deeply held views, who totally reject the idea
that their children should be given sex education and that it
should be done in the home. Whether they then teach it in the
home is another matter. Given that it is a highly emotive subject
which causes, or would I suspect if we embarked down the line
you are suggesting, terrible trouble for the government of the
day regardless of its political complexion, are you suggesting
that these parents should not have the right to opt their children
out of those lessons but that there should be a statutory requirement
that all children should attend public health sex education at
school?
(Mr Blake) Absolutely. Children and young people tell
us time and time again that is what they want, they want sex education.
The alternative, of course, is if they do not get it in the home
what they do is grow up with worry, confusion and shame.
490. Do they not usually just ask someone else
if they do not get it from home? Some people find it easier to
talk to other people rather than their parents if their parents
are not forthcoming.
(Mr Blake) I think the established good practice in
all of this is that you deliver it in partnership with parents.
491. That is good practice but I am talking
about the reality, picking up your statement. If parents will
not talk to their children because they find it embarrassing or
whatever, will the children more often than not go elsewhere for
the information and some of the sources of the information may
be excellent, some may be highly dubious? Where do they go then?
(Mr Blake) That is the issue, is it not. If you take
boys, for example, which was something that was talked about earlier,
what they say is in the absence of any good sources of information
they look to pornography. Whatever our individual values are I
think we would all agree that pornography is not the best place
to learn about sex and relationships. We have to look at some
of the alternatives that children and young people are getting
and recognise that good education, whether that is sex education
or in maths, numeracy or literacy, will be delivered with parents
and carers in partnership so that children get accurate information
and the opportunity to have a developmental curriculum which is
progressive and continues throughout school life.
Mr Burns: That does not get around the
problem of those parents who, rightly or wrongly, for whatever
reason totally reject the whole concept that school is the right
forum for their children to learn about sex. Not personal relationships
but sex. There may not be that many people in this country but
there is quite a vociferous minority.
Jim Dowd
492. By extension, is it not the case that (a)
the vast majority of parents are more than happy for the school
to take on this role of explanation and (b) for those who do feel
most strongly and object to it they do discharge their responsibility
to provide information instead? There are very, very few cases
where parents would deny both the school education system to provide
the information and still decline to do it themselves.
(Mr Blake) It is .04 per cent, the statistic of children
who are withdrawn from sex education at the moment. We do not
have any hard evidence about who they are but they are probably
the same children who are withdrawn from religious education and
from assembly. At the moment the right of withdrawal is infrequently
used and when it is used the Teenage Pregnancy Strategy outlined
that there would be a leaflet which parents would be given and
they would be supported in talking to children about sex and relationships.
Of course there is a vociferous minority, that is absolutely right,
but we do have a responsibility to try to meet the needs of most
of the people most of the time.
Mr Burns
493. You can do that on a voluntary basis.
(Mr Blake) The reality is that is not happening. What
is happening on the ground is people are saying "we must
take it to the next phase now in order that we can enable us to
really get to grips with this, grasp the nettle", and it
will be a nettle because, like you say, there will be some who
will oppose it, but it will be a minority, and we have to ensure
that all children get their entitlement.
Andy Burnham
494. To follow up with a question to Mrs Abbott.
I think you are the only educationalist sitting here today and
I would like to know what you think, at what age sexual education
should start?
(Mrs Abbott) If you want my own personal opinion my
daughter came home the other day, and she is just eight years
old, and in her school has just started embarking on sexual words,
"penis" etc., and I thought "Gosh, my daughter
is doing this at eight". I am of the firm belief that if
you are looking at the ages of four, five or six you are looking
at little kids getting on with each other, you are looking maybe
at little bullying incidents that might take place, you are looking
at things of that nature. If you are going along the road of ages
seven and eight I think it is important that they do know about
their body parts because my daughter started talking to me about
it, she wants to know how babies are made and obviously I am going
to tell her and once I have told her very simplistically it is
in there and she has never asked me again. I think at the age
of seven or eight to be learning about body parts is absolutely
fine for me. At the age of four, in my personal opinion I am not
so sure.
495. I can remember finding out in the playground
at about age ten or 11. Has that changed, are they finding out
much younger?
(Mrs Abbott) They are finding out much younger. Yes,
children are finding out much younger and in the schools that
you work in, the junior schools or whatever, they come from different
backgrounds and different bits of information are going to be
fed to them. I would much rather my child learned in a classroom
in an infants, in a junior school, from a professional, from a
teacher there rather than out on the playground finding all sorts
of things that she comes home and asks her mum about.
496. People in Manchester told us that they
hate mixed messages and sex education in schools differs from
what they are told in teen magazines and the media. From the sound
of it your model is trying to get around that, trying to explain
it rather than saying "do not do it".
(Mrs Abbott) I think what I am trying to do and the
outcome of it is we are giving the students the opportunity—I
am not saying sex under age is right or anything—where if
they do get themselves into a situation that they cannot deal
with, I would like to know that I am providing them with the confidence
that they can say no if they want to. I always say in the classroom
"you do this because you care, because you want to"
and never of any other ilk. If they do get themselves into a situation
I know that I have got the support in my authority where students
can go to. We are setting up a notice board in the school that
provides all that information, local information, where people
can go to. We will have nurses coming in for drop-in sessions
in the schools. I really think that is what it is all about, that
they have the opportunity to go somewhere and they feel they can
talk to someone who is supportive. You cannot say to everybody
"sex is never going to happen to you, you are never going
to get into this situation" because students do.
497. Do you use peer groups? Do you use slightly
older children talking to younger groups?
(Mrs Abbott) Yes. We have not done yet but in my last
school we did and I would like to bring that in but I have gone
such a long way this year with the school that I am in. It will
come in the future most definitely, yes.
Jim Dowd
498. Is your guidance entirely value free? Are
you saying "if you feel like doing it then do but if you
do not then do not"?
(Mrs Abbott) No. In the beginning I talked about following
the government guidelines that you have to be in a careful supportive
relationship, but you have to be frank and honest with the students
and there may be somebody who finds themselves in difficulty and
if they do we have to provide them with the support so they can
find help if they need to.
499. You need to describe caring and supportive
relationships as well?
(Mrs Abbott) Definitely.
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