Examination of Witnesses (Questions 860-879)
THURSDAY 16 JANUARY 2003
MS LORNA
WEBLEY, MS
TARA HALL,
MS SARAH
NICHOLLS, MR
DAVID MORRIS,
MS EMMA
HENDERSON AND
MS ERICA
BUIST
860. You do not think particularly that it is
necessary to have something around the schools as long as it is
a youth clinic?
(Ms Nicholls) We came up with the recommendation that
people should be allowed to leave school without stigma to go
to certain clinics, so if there was a clinic run for an hour on
a morning for the emergency morning-after pill, we recommend that
pupils should be allowed to leave school without any stigma whether
it is just to be given a card with a number on to hand in to the
teacher to say, "This is where I've been. I've definitely
been there", without any stigma. We are not necessarily saying
that the clinics should come to the schools, but we are saying
that the schools should work in alliance with the clinics.
Mr Burns
861. On that point, have you encountered any
problems with parents about that sort of view or any overall view
that parents in fact should be taking the decisions, not the pupils?
(Mr Morris) I do not understand what you mean.
862. Sarah was saying that she thought there
should be a time during school hours when people could go to the
clinic for whatever reason, as she outlined, and I was just wondering
if there had been any feedback from parents about whether they
felt that that was something that their children should be able
to do without their permission or knowledge?
(Ms Nicholls) We did not actually speak to the parents
about it. We only spoke to young people.
863. Presumably if your suggestions were to
be adopted, parents would find out fairly quickly what their children
were able to do in school hours.
(Ms Nicholls) When we say this was our recommendation,
we do not mean that they should be allowed to go to the sexual
health clinic for any reason whatsoever. It was mainly for things
like the morning-after pill. I know from a personal experience
of a friend that she had had unprotected sex and she wanted the
morning-after pill, but they would not let her out of school,
so she was panicking because she could not get out of school.
It is things like that, but I am not personally saying and I do
not think the Peer Group is saying that you should be allowed
out of school to access all sexual health services.
864. Right, but if we just take the narrow example
you have given, presumably there is a counter-argument that instead
of this individual going to school and then panicking that the
school will not allow them to go, the individual could say to
their parent or parents at breakfast, though they will not, I
suspect, for a number of reasons, but what I am saying is that
if the school were automatically to allow pupils to go for the
reason you have given, sooner or later the parents will find out,
or presumably they will find out, that the school are allowing
pupils to go during school hours. I was just wondering if parents
have had any input with their views on that suggestion that schools
should do it.
(Ms Webley) I think that if that recommendation were
to be adopted, then the school and the parents and the sexual
services that are in question should all come together and discuss
it so that everyone knows where everyone stands and what is actually
happening so that no one is left in the dark.
865. Would you anticipate though that parents
would have strong views or do you think that it is only a relatively
small section of parents who would have strong views?
(Ms Nicholls) I think a lot of parents would have
very strong views about it. Like I say, we cannot comment because
we have only spoken to young people. If parents do, it then comes
down to whether the parents would mind them missing half an hour
of school or have the chance to sit there with a baby. Like Lorna
says, it would come to a point when the parents, the teachers
and some youths would have to sit down and would have to discuss
it and draw certain outlines so that it cannot be taken advantage
of. It might be that they are only allowed to go during the school
break or times like that, but it would have to be discussed. It
is something we feel people are not going to because they are
getting stigma from it and they are getting hassle at school from
it and that is one of the reasons which is stopping young people
accessing services.
(Mr Morris) I think it should be confidential to young
people as well. If they want to tell their parents that they have
been to the clinic, that is up to them.
866. At what age should it be confidential?
(Ms Nicholls) Every age.
867. Most parents presumably would never accept
that.
(Ms Nicholls) It is not done for the parents at the
end of the day. The confidentiality statement is there for a reason
and one good reason that young people are not accessing services
is because they are frightened that their parents will find out,
so we are trying to reassure young people that their parents will
never find out about anything. Therefore, if they are going to
leave school and it has all been sorted out, the parents need
never find out. No one should ever be told about anything because
it is all confidential and the confidentiality statement should,
therefore, keep it drummed into young people so they do know.
Chairman
868. I would just like to welcome Emma Buist
who is a late arrival.
(Ms Buist) Actually public transport is another issue
for the Youth Parliament!
869. The Transport Committee is down the corridor!
We are very pleased to see you. I noticed that when Sarah and
her colleagues were answering Simon's question, you were in agreement
about the issue of parents. Do you want to say your own views
on that? Your views concurred presumably with the Wakefield views.
(Ms Buist) I have a question on that. I completely
agree with what they were saying about confidentiality as it is
one of the most important issues with sexual health, but a lot
of questions are asked about whether the parents should be informed
and at what age should they be informed. There is an assumption
that they should be. I ask what is the real concern with letting
parents know every issue and that always seems to come up, at
what age should we tell the parents, but why is it so important
to let the parents know because we feel that it is a very, very
private issue if you are having sex even if you are under age?
(Ms Henderson) If they feel that they are old enough
to start having sex, even if they are not legally old enough,
then they have a right to confidentiality.
(Ms Buist) It is not a subject to be shared. The parents
would not expect to share their sexual lives with their children,
so why should the children be expected to share theirs with their
parents?
Mr Burns
870. Because up to a certain age, the parents
are responsible for the actions of their children in other fields
and if they have to, metaphorically, carry the can if their children
or if young people commit certain breaches of the law that they
may be responsible for, then logically, if you carry it across,
if they have responsibilities in that area, then surely they have
responsibilities in all areas of the upbringing of their children,
hopefully through consent between the parent and the child or
young person, and that would be the answer.
(Ms Buist) That is a very good point, but you have
to remember that having sex as a teenager, especially a young
teenager, is a very, very delicate issue and there are unfortunately
living environments where if it is the law to tell your parents
and for the parents to be informed, that will create real problems
at home. There are some environments which are abusive and where
they will not hesitate to kick them out. It is unfortunate, but
it is true. That is why we feel that it should be completely confidential
and that is one of the reasons because it is such a delicate issue
and there is such a stigma attached to it, and unfortunately we
cannot really do all that much about the stigma, and it is unfortunately
where we have to treat the symptoms and not the cause.
(Ms Henderson) I think also you are talking about
logic and law. There is definitely law and logic behind it, but
if you try and tell someone who is under age having sex that there
is logic behind what they are doing, even now there is not logic
behind sex, people just do it, so if they feel in their minds
that they are old enough to have sex, then they are going to have
it. There is no logic behind it. Therefore, no law applies to
them in their minds.
Chairman
871. You are saying that this issue of the parents
being notified is one of the reasons why we have such big problems?
(Ms Henderson) Yes.
872. That is a very interesting point you are
making.
(Ms Buist) It is terrifying.
(Ms Hall) My mum got a letter from the school. My
brother is 14 now and it was a permission slip for my brother
to watch a sex education video.
873. So you feel that should not have happened?
(Ms Hall) No. He is 14.
Chairman: I have a 14-year-old actually. I am
very sympathetic to what you are saying and I think it is very
relevant and very important and I think we have gained some very
key and important messages from your evidence, but, as a parent,
if my 14-year-old came home, having seen a video that I knew nothing
about and started asking questions, and I would like to think
that she would do if there were issues she felt uneasy about on
it, should I not have been aware of what was going on? Do you
follow the point I am making? I think one of the problems we have
got in this country compared to maybe Sweden and the Netherlands
is that teenagers and parents do not talk about these issues.
Other countries are different and I think one of the things we
have got to address is why we are different. How do we ensure
that parents are aware of the issues that are being looked at
and the questions which might be asked? John, do you want to come
in on that?
John Austin
874. Just really to ask a question on that.
Would you all agree that it would be useful if all parents knew
what was in the sex education programme in the school or is Tara
really saying that the parents should not have a right to exclude
their child from that education?
(Ms Hall) I do not think that the parents should,
no.
875. Because they could do with educating too?
(Ms Hall) The parents should be aware of what is exactly
in the programme, but they should not be able to say whether their
child can watch it or not because it is up to that child to say,
"I want to learn" because it is prevention again.
(Ms Webley) What if one of the parents actually wrote
and said that they are not allowed to watch the video? Then they
would be excluded from the rest of the pupils and all of their
friends are going to be talking about it anyway.
Chairman
876. So essentially what you are saying is that
I could not object to it, but would you accept that it might be
helpful if I knew what was in it in case my daughter or son asked
questions about it?
(Ms Buist) It is all about raising awareness, so that
is the awareness of the parents as well, that is what is happening,
so definitely, but they certainly should not have the right to
turn around and say, "I want to deny my child sex education"
because it is a right and it is a damaging one to remove.
(Ms Nicholls) I would just say that the fact that
it is the first letter he has had in school, and he is 14, asking
if he can watch a sex education video, to me, is out of order.
If sex education was in school how we think it should be and how
we recommend it should be, the parents at the beginning, when
their children start school, could even get a list of everything
that is going to be covered over the five years within school.
The fact that he is only just getting sex education when he has
turned 14 and the school are asking for permission to watch a
video, that raises another really big point that they are not
getting it early enough.
Julia Drown
877. If a parent for religious reasons, Catholic,
Christian, Muslim or whatever, did not want their child to learn
about sex in school, maybe they say, "I'll teach my child
about this when I think the time is right and in a way which I
think is right", should they have the ability to say, "I
don't want my child to be taught sex education in school"?
(Ms Henderson) I do not think so. If it is the religion
of the parent, I think the child still has the right to choose.
If they are of the parents' religion and they agree that they
want their parents to teach them and not to see the video, then
yes, but the parents still do not have the right to decide. It
is the parents' religion, not necessarily the child's.
(Ms Buist) A lot of religions dictate, "No sex
before marriage", and that is fine, but I think they worry
that sex education and teaching them about sex, teaching them
what contraception is and how and where to get it will somehow
encourage them to just run out, get contraception and start having
sex. I find that illogical and ridiculous, but, on the other hand,
if it is taught correctly by saying, "We are not encouraging
you", if they explore the emotional side, then the parents
really should not have anything to worry about. Even if they do,
if the worst comes to the worst and they do think, "Hooray!
I can get condoms. I know what to do, so I'll go out and have
sex", at least they will be doing it with contraception.
To be honest, I think it is a lack of clarity in their minds that
it will encourage them and I think that is unfair.
Dr Naysmith
878. Following up on Julia's question, there
was something I wanted to ask about. I was going to ask it about
the sex education system as you had experienced it, but I can
probably predict that you are going to say that it is so useless
that it does not matter anyway. What I was going to ask about
was the fact that in Britain nowadays in many classes, with 30
being the top size of class, there will be lots of diverse backgrounds
represented in that class in many parts of the country, different
religions, as we have just been talking about, different rates
of development and different sexual orientation and that kind
of thing. What would you think a sex education programme should
do about the fact that there is all this diversity? How can you
do it in a way that stops individuals feeling excluded and not
part of the group? Clearly Tara has been talking a bit about sex
education, so what do you think about that to start with?
(Ms Hall) As one of the people from the Youth Parliament
said, it is the child's right to choose what education they want
and with sex, yes, parents may have an input into it, but I think
basically it is down to the young person.
879. I am not so much talking about the parents'
attitude now, but the fact that you need to teach different things
to different youngsters.
(Ms Webley) Each person should be taught about each
issue, like being attracted to the same sex is never talked about
in schools, so people do not understand it, whereas everything
should be taught to everyone, so whichever way they are, everyone
is okay with everything because they know all the ins and outs
of everything that is being taught.
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