Examination of Witnesses (Questions 880-899)
THURSDAY 16 JANUARY 2003
MS LORNA
WEBLEY, MS
TARA HALL,
MS SARAH
NICHOLLS, MR
DAVID MORRIS,
MS EMMA
HENDERSON AND
MS ERICA
BUIST
880. That would have to mean a totally different
kind of programme than the one we have got now where you get a
couple of lessons for everyone.
(Ms Buist) I think another problem is the fact that
sex education is tokenism and it is taught by PE teachers or English
teachers. We have trained English teachers to teach English, we
have trained maths teachers to teach maths, so if there were specialists
to teach sex education, it would be more than just token information
which is largely patchy and left out. I have always felt that
they have had an information pack thrown at them and they were
told to read out what was on the sheet. They did that in my school.
Some people were not very mature about it. I just think that because
it is so token, if we got specialists to do it, that would certainly
make it a lot more valid.
Dr Naysmith: How does David feel about it as
the only young man on the panel?
Chairman: A very brave young man!
Dr Naysmith
881. Should they be taught in separate groups?
(Mr Morris) I think it should be appropriate to people.
Also education about people liking the same sex should be taught
as well and a different variety of things. That is my opinion.
Chairman
882. Can I just press you on this issue of whether
it is better to have separate sessions for males and females because
we picked up in Manchester that there is a lot of tittering among
the lads sometimes and perhaps less maturity sometimes for obvious
reasons, so would you have felt, David, and I do not know what
sex education you had in your school, but looking at what you
have picked up from the work you have done, do you feel that we
should be recommending that it should be done in separate sessions
or do you feel that it is quite reasonable to do it in mixed sessions?
(Mr Morris) When I was at school it was separate sessions.
The girls went off and did their thing and the guys went off and
did their thing. I think it does not really matter whether it
is the same sex or not. Maybe some people prefer it to be separate
because then the girls can talk about girl issues and the guys
can talk about guy issues rather than being embarrassed about
it in front of their boyfriends and things like that. I think
it depends on the person.
883. What is the feeling of the other witnesses?
(Ms Nicholls) We actually have a recommendation on
this, that there should be a multi-agency teacher approach, including
specialist teachers and all issues should be raised, including
male issues and female issues. Now, this does not just mean that
we are going to take the blokes off to talk about bloke things
and take the girls off to talk about girl things. The females,
the young ladies, should be allowed to get just as much sex education
and information on what goes on with a boy as they should with
themselves because at the end of the day they are both coming
together to have sex, so they need to know what is being offered
in both parts. With sex education with the lads tittering, obviously
you do always get the, "Oh, that's really funny!", so
we were recommending doing different things like role-play, using
CD-roms, putting on sports events. It could be something like
putting on a football match where every person represents something
different. Little things make a big difference when it comes to
sex education, especially the difference between different cultures
and things like that. My best friend is Catholic and in her school
they do not get sex education and it is a really big shame, but
obviously everyone is taught about the Catholic religion in RE
because you do not just get taught Christianity, but you get taught
Buddhism and everything, so why not get taught about everything
in sex education. It just seems to be on a one-way track of, "This
is what sex is, two people together", and it is not and there
are so many other paths which need to be gone down regarding sex
education.
Sandra Gidley
884. Are you saying that what you are taught
is actually very mechanical and basic and you do not explore the
emotional aspects or the relationship aspects and it is all taught
in a bit of an embarrassed way?
(Ms Nicholls) Yes, it was kind of, "Boy meets
girl, girl meets boy. Boy likes girl, boy and girl kiss",
stuff like that. I remember the only lesson we had on sexual health,
there was nothing about chlamydia or syphilis or anything like
that, but it was a leaflet passed around the class about AIDS
and HIV which then got taken back to the form teacher at the end
of the lesson to use in next week's lesson with a different group.
885. Do you think that your parents should be
educated? I have two teenagers. My daughter can talk to me about
anything and my son is, "Oh, Mum!", and it is all very
difficult, but a lot of teenagers cannot talk to their parents
and the parents find it equally difficult. Do you think there
is a need for actually putting a course on for the parents so
that they can actually talk about these things more realistically
with young people without it all getting reduced to the very personal
sometimes?
(Ms Webley) I think it would be a good idea to do
that, yes. I remember once when I was in small school that you
got a leaflet about the changes you would be going through and
then there was a little booklet for your parents which did explain
the changes that we would be going through and how to help us
through it which I thought was really good, but since then there
has never been anything else. That was just it, so I thought,
"That's a good start, but you need to give more information
for when the changes occur", but it stopped there.
Dr Taylor
886. I am more and more interested in the place
of the parents, although I think that is going to come up a little
bit later. I wanted to go to the Wakefield people to learn a little
bit more about the Options clinic. Is this open access, walk in
any time?
(Mr Morris) It is evenings, two nights a week.
887. Where is it physically?
(Mr Morris) It is out of town and it is not signposted
or anything.
(Ms Nicholls) It is in the family planning clinic
and the worst thing about the family planning clinic is that it
is directly behind Wakefield College. Now, no one can see it because
it is directly behind Wakefield College, yet there is a door to
go into Wakefield College that you can walk straight through and
then straight out of the back door and it is there, but no one
knows how to go around Wakefield College to get to it and there
are no signposts for it or anything.
888. Is it meant for sexual health matters or
for support on any matter for young people?
(Ms Webley) It is for relationships as well as sexual
health issues.
889. Is there a stigma in going to that or can
you creep in because it is so hidden without anybody knowing?
(Ms Nicholls) The worst thing is that you have got
to ask someone where it is to actually be able to get there.
890. Going on to services for young people with
sexual health problems, we have rather skated over the sexually-transmitted
diseases. You just began to mention them. We have got to avoid
personal questions, so these are very general questions. Do you
feel that the education even attempts to cover the risks of the
sexually-transmitted diseases? There are lots of shaking heads
behind.
(Ms Hall) When we were doing the questionnaire, I
found that more people were concerned about getting pregnant than
they were about HIV and STDs.
891. We have heard that time and time again,
that the risks of the infections are felt to be far less than
the risk of getting pregnant. If any people in your area had worries
about a sexually-transmitted disease or infection, how would they
know where to go? Would you know where to go? Is that information
available or not?
(Ms Webley) I would never know where to go.
892. You would not know where to go?
(Ms Nicholls) No. This is what we are saying, that
there is not enough information or contact numbers for young people.
This goes back to the school planners. We say why can they not
put a page in the school planner with all the contact numbers
on? Advertising is a big part.
(Ms Buist) It is our job to know, not personally.
(Ms Nicholls) Why can they not put posters on the
back of buses or in pubs and clubs, on the back of toilet doors?
Most people come to us because we have been educated on it obviously.
(Ms Buist) That took a lot, to find out where everything
is. The best description I could get was, "It's behind Boots".
It was not behind Boots, but then of course there was a great
big thing, saying, "Sexual health this way", and there
was a winding path you have to go down with everyone looking at
you and you just want to say, "I'm just here for research!"
(Ms Nicholls) The GUM clinic in Wakefield, I had already
been there twice before, but I had always gone by car, but this
time I had to catch the bus because I was going from college and
I could not find it. I asked someone on the street if they knew
where the GUM clinic was and they said to me, "The nearest
dentist is just down the road"! I gave in and walked to the
hospital and they had someone on work experience behind reception
and by this point I was bright red. I was not really that bothered,
but I thought, "Oh no! People are looking at me now",
so I walked in and said, "Can you tell me where the GUM clinic
is?" and he said, "I don't know". There was nobody
else around, so he had to ring a nurse to come and get me to escort
me round. I had to walk all the way through the hospital and I
got there, but I actually could have just got off the bus and
walked down one street, but there was no signpost to tell me that
I could have got off the bus there and walked down that street.
If I cannot find it when I have already visited it and I do all
my research there, how are young people supposed to find it?
(Ms Buist) That is something they all ask really,
about the level of inaccessibility.
893. So what would be your ideal service? What
would you like? Where would it be? How would you access it? Would
it be connected with school or how would you access it?
(Ms Nicholls) One of our recommendations was that
sexual health clinics could be put in other areas, like there
could be a sexual health clinic in a sports centre, for example,
so everyone knows where the sports centre is, they can go into
the sports centre, access the clinic and maybe if they are a young
mother, the children can get discounts on activities or they could
perhaps get a discount on an activity. Walking into a sports centre,
everyone knows where it is, but no one knows what you are actually
going into the sports centre for because you are going to the
gym, are you not, so it is things like that. We are really trying
to push this, for all the services to be under one roof which
we know is so terribly difficult because you have got all the
equipment, but the worst thing is people going to the family planning
clinic and then being sent to the GUM clinic which is about a
two-minute walk away, but they cannot find it. Then on the way
up there they are panicking already because they have been sent
to another clinic, thinking, "Oh my God!" It is a hit-and-miss
situation basically. If you can get to the family planning clinic
and they can give you everything you want, you are sorted, but
otherwise you are not. One of our recommendations is alternative
venues, even if it is for two hours a week in a room in a sports
centre, like I say, because everyone knows where it is.
894. That is a very good idea to have it in
sports centres. Do you access your own GPs or would you access
your own GPs for these sorts of problems or would you try and
avoid that?
(Ms Nicholls) I personally do because it is a family
GP and it is a two-minute walk from my house, whereas to get to
the sexual health clinic, I have to catch a bus into town, which
is another problem for young people because they think they cannot
afford it and they do not know that certain clinics do actually
refund your bus fares, so that is another thing we are trying
to push forward. Our GUM clinic refunds the bus fares and no one
knew this, so we said to them, "No one knows", so they
have actually put a poster on the wall now, saying, "We will
happily refund your bus fares", but no one knew about two
months ago that they would do that. It is a big situation that
needs a lot of work. It is not something obviously that can just
be done overnight, like with the waiting room being swapped around,
but it is one of the main reasons why young people will not access
services because they cannot get to them. They do not want to
go to the GP because it is their family GP or they cannot afford
to get there.
Dr Naysmith
895. There are clinics like that in the Bristol
area which operate for a couple of hours in an evening and that
sort of thing, but one of the criticisms of them, and there are
not enough of them, but one of the criticisms of them is that
young people just turn up there because they know that they can
get free contraceptives.
(Ms Nicholls) This is the point that we went through.
We have not actually recommended anything on it but it is a point
that we went through. The main thing was that we needed to let
young people know the difference between protection and contraception
to start with and the fact that even if they are only turning
up at the Options Clinic to get contraception and to get free
condoms, it is better than them not turning up at all.
896. What we really want is where people will
talk about things in a deeper way rather than just collecting
free contraceptives. Is that not what we need?
(Ms Nicholls) Yes. We came up with the Buddy Scheme
as well which was one of our recommendations, that perhaps young
people could actually work for our Options Clinic; they can be
there waiting and, when someone comes, they can sit with them
and explain to them what is going to happen and explain to them
what they can actually get out of the Options Clinic and even
go into the room with them if they wanted them to but again that
comes down to confidentiality. If they had someone there to actually
talk to them and say what is going to happen, that you can get
this, this and this and that you do not need to just come in and
get your condoms and leave, that there are a number of other offers
you can get from the sexual health clinics that would help the
process, then people would not just think of it as a free condom
machine which is one of the main thoughts at the moment. People
do not know that, at the family planning clinic, you can actually
go and talk to a doctor about family planning. It is not all about
contraception. You can sit down and say, "Do you think this
is the right time for me to go? Is it the right time for me to
have a baby?" Obviously this does not involve young people
as much, but young people do not know that that offer is there
and available to them if they want them.
897. We saw some clinics in Sweden which is
much, much wider than that, where people can go and talk about
all sorts of relationship issues and they are comfortable and
welcoming places. These are for young people up to the age of
23. There are not many of those in this country and you would
obviously want to see more of that.
(Ms Nicholls) Yes. That sounds like a really good
clinic.
John Austin
898. This has been partly touched on by something
Sandra Gidley said earlier regarding the different relationships
she may have with her son and her daughter but, in previous inquiries
on other health issues, there has been general evidence that women
are much more in touch with what is going on in their bodies than
men are and are much more likely to talk about that and share
that with peers than men or young men are. I do not really want
to put Mr Morris on the spot but a number of people have said
that young men feel excluded from sexual health services, perhaps
through embarrassment or perhaps through lack of knowledge. What
do you think can be done to improve services and accessibility
for young men?
(Mr Morris) I think that a number of young men do
not go to the services because of this macho thing with their
friends and they are embarrassed to go, but I think women are
as well. I think that maybe having a separate clinic for guys
as well as women in the evening is a good idea. It is mixed at
the moment but, if they had one for men and one for women or mixed,
they could go to whichever one they wanted to and that would be
a big help. Then they would not turn up when their girlfriend's
friends are there. I think that would help.
(Ms Nicholls) There is a well women centre for women
obviously and there is MESMAC which is for bi-sexual people sexual
health services but, off the top of my head, I cannot really think
of a service that is typically aimed at males and males only.
(Mr Morris) There is one but it is more about rape
and trauma for men. That is about it really. There are no male
clinics, it is all mixed. There are a number of women ones about
and I think that, if there were more male ones, it would be a
lot better.
(Ms Nicholls) Even if it is not so much the well women
centre, which is obviously a full centre in itself, and even if
it is not a full centre like with the Options Clinic, like Mr
Morris said, if it were lads night only at the Options Clinic
. . . You could make a joke out of it: "Lads Night Only—you
can put the footie on the TV!" Do you know what I mean? For
the women, pictures of Gareth Gates, Will Young and what-have-you
can be stuck on the wall.
Chairman
899. What do you have on your bedroom wall?
(Ms Nicholls) I have David Hinchliffe on my bedroom
wall! It is true. We had his photo taken for the paper and my
mum was a bit excited about it because it was all about coming
to London, so she put it in a big frame and stuck it on my bedroom
wall!
John Austin: I hope that is not going to devalue
any of the evidence you have given us! Lack of judgment and all
that!
Mr Burns: Your street-cred has been undermined!
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