Examination of Witnesses (Questions 960-979)
THURSDAY 16 JANUARY 2003
MS NATALIE
STUART, MS
ANNA EAGLE,
MR JAY
BAILEY, MS
GEMMA MINTY,
MS RACHAEL
WARD AND
MR SCOTT
WILLIAMS
960. Or was everyone developing at different
rates or coming from different backgrounds?
What do you think?
(Ms Stuart) Do you mean with the dolls? If everyone
had had a doll? Yes. Obviously they are expensive—I think
the dolls are £300—but we had to sign a contract to
say that, if we broke it or anything, we would have to pay for
it. We were there to do it properly and use it properly because
we did not want to pay the money. You cannot turn it off and that
does really, really help. It would have definitely changed me
and I think it would have changed other people as well. When I
was pregnant, my boyfriend helped me look after the doll because
it goes off at 5.00 in the morning as well and it changed his
view as well and he knew exactly what was going to happen when
he was going to be a dad. It was not the same anymore. It was
not that he did not know what was going to happen because he did.
The doll gave him a sight of it.
John Austin
961. How much do they cost?
(Ms Stuart) I think £300.
Julia Drown
962. Ms Eagle, did you have that doll as well?
(Ms Eagle) When I went to the Young mums-to-be course,
that was the only time I saw one. I had never seen one before,
but I do reckon that it is good.
963. Would you say that everybody in a class
should have this practical experience of part of the reality of
having a baby?
(Ms Eagle) Yes, I do reckon that they should have
them in schools, in like PSE or whatever, and let them take them
home for a week or something. I reckon it will change people.
(Ms Stuart) I had mine for a weekend and that was
enough! By Monday morning, I was skipping to college to give it
back!
964. Can I just pick up the point that Andy
Burnham was asking about your sex education. Was it similar in
that you had that bit in primary school and then a gap and then
just a tiny bit in secondary school as well?
(Ms Eagle) Yes.
965. Do you share the view that teachers may
be not that good at teaching it and would you have preferred to
hear from peers?
(Ms Stuart) We did PSE and that was mainly about drugs.
I can just remember doing drugs all the time; I cannot actually
remember much about sex. When we went to the health clinic because
I had to go and get condoms there, you are in a quiet room like
this and there are people sitting around and they can hear what
you are asking for, so you do not want to go in and you do not
want to say, "Can I talk to someone" even if you think
you have a disease or anything. You cannot even ask them because
people are around and they say, "Pardon?"
966. And you are having that in a waiting room
effectively?
(Ms Stuart) Yes. Say this is the desk and this is
all the waiting room and there is a woman sat there who says,
"Yes, can I help you?" and everyone can hear—it
is like having a microphone.
967. Later, do you get an appointment and go
in to talk to somebody quietly or not?
(Ms Stuart) No because, if you ask for an appointment
to see somebody, they ask what for. "Why do you want to speak
to someone?" because they want to make sure that you speak
to the right person. So, if I wanted to speak to someone about
my leg, they are going to put me through to someone who can help
with my leg.
968. So the issue there about confidentiality
is important.
(Ms Stuart) You have to speak up in front of people
and, in the end, I walk away.
969. In fact, that was not in a family planning
clinic, that was a general health clinic?
(Ms Stuart) Yes, a health clinic but you go into a
room where it is all sexual health, it is that kind of clinic,
but they are still saying it out loud as well.
970. The other thing Andy Burnham said was that
he felt that people should not learn about sex too early because
that could create a pressure for people to have sex. Do you think
it is right that having sex education can create a pressure to
have sex?
(Ms Stuart) I do not think from too young because
I can remember that I did not pay attention because I was embarrassed
and you sat there with your head down and they would say, "Any
questions?" and you would say, "no" because you
did not want to ask any questions. I cannot really remember what
I was taught at school. I think that, if they are too young, they
will forget. I do not think that they would think about peer pressure
really.
(Mr Williams) If you give the relevant and informative
sexual education in a not very informative and a very relaxed
way, then it would probably restrict people to go out and try
it because some sex education is dead brief, really brief, which
could—I am not saying that it does—promote people
to say, "I want to know more" and go out and do it.
You tell a baby not to stick their hand in the fire and what does
he go and do? He tries to stick his hand in the fire. We like
to know why. So, if you say, "Don't have sex because it is
bad for you and because you will get pregnant and you do not want
a baby", you will think why? I will go out and try it and
see. If it is relevant and it is very informative instead of being
brief, then I think that would be a better way of producing sex
education.
Dr Naysmith
971. I still want to get Jay's views on this.
"One size fits all" in sex education seems to be the
norm in schools. I just wonder whether you felt that it was helpful
to you. I know it is much more difficult—
(Mr Bailey) Was sex education helpful to me? Sex education
was not helpful to me because of section 28. Whenever I went into
school to get sex education I never wanted to go in because I
was either embarrassed or I had different problems of homelessness;
there was isolation and there were family problems. You did not
want to go in because you would be embarrassed telling your teacher,
"Oh, excuse me, teacher. I'm gay." You get picked on,
you get bullied by the pupils. I never did a sex education lesson.
972. How would you like to see it structured
then? I know it is very difficult.
(Mr Bailey) Abolish section 28.
Dr Naysmith: We are working on that now. That
will happen before the end of this session.
Chairman
973. Jay, one of the issues that we have talked
to other witnesses about is the whole question of how you deal
with questions from pupils about orientation and at what age that
would be something that a person may wish to ask questions about.
Clearly we have heard messages that the top end of primary school
would be an appropriate time to start doing something. Scott talked
about 13 and we might come back to that because I am not so sure
that that is not too late. If the average age of first intercourse
is now 16, 13 will mean that there are quite a number of people
having sex already. I am concerned on orientation—at what
stage would you have felt it appropriate to talk to somebody about
your own concerns?
(Mr Bailey) To begin in secondary school.
974. So you are talking about 11-12 time?
(Mr Bailey) Yes.
Dr Naysmith
975. I do not know whether you would want to
do it in a mixed class, a big class, or whether what you really
want is more individual chatting about it and information.
(Mr Bailey) I do not know. I would probably do it
in a range of people. I would not want to do it on my own because
I want other people to learn about it. If you do it on your own
there are other pupils that may be thinking if they are gay, lesbian,
bisexual and they may want to learn about it and if they learn
about it then they can come out to people.
976. You are prepared to say definitely at the
moment that it is a total inhibition because of section 28?
(Mr Bailey) Yes.
977. Is the subject never discussed?
(Mr Bailey) The subject is never discussed in school
because teachers are scared—
978. Could I just ask someone else because you
told me you never went to a sex education lesson. I just want
information.
(Ms Minty) I think that first of all you need to break
down the barrier between young gay, lesbian and bisexual people
and straight people because at the moment the barrier is so high.
You can see kids running round and saying, "Oh, your shoes
are gay", without them actually knowing the meaning of the
word "gay". If they were taught from an early age that
some people choose to have two Dads or two Mums, then the barriers
would gently fall and then perhaps sex education could be more
open, you could explore the alternative ways of having sex.
979. It is wider of course than sex education.
It is about relationships and that sort of thing. I just wanted
to establish whether it is in fact true that none of you has ever
had a chance to discuss other kinds of relationships in school.
(Ms Ward) No.
(Mr Williams) I attended all my sexual lessons—PSE,
they were called—because I had to and I have never heard
anything about lesbians, gays or bisexuals. I think we chat so
much about heterosexual relationships and all manner of "normal"
relationships, why can we not, when we start off heterosexual
education, start off lesbian, gay and bisexual education as well,
because people are gay, lesbian, bisexual when they are young.
They know; it has been proven. Jay himself knew. Obviously they
need to learn. Before section 28 people were told and people knew
about it but when section 28 was brought up people stopped, and
that is when the barriers came up, because people do not know.
Now I do not know properly about lesbian, gay and bisexuals and
that causes friction between heterosexuals and lesbians/gays/bisexuals,
because you do not know about them so you think it is not the
norm. You think they are weird; they are the outcast. If we learned
about it the same as heterosexual education lessons then I think
the barriers would slowly drop because people would become accepting
again of it.
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