Examination of Witnesses (Questions 1120-1139)
THURSDAY 23 JANUARY 2003
MS HAZEL
BLEARS MP AND
MR STEPHEN
TWIGG MP
John Austin
1120. Several of our witnesses have said that
the reason that services fail to meet the needs of young people
is that by and large they are designed by older people who have
not much clue about the needs of young people. We saw last week
in our evidence young people themselves who were quite clearly
talking about what they felt they needed and wanted, and if you
have not seen the evidence I suggest you get the video! I think
I speak for many of my colleagues in saying how much we deplore
the way some journalists portrayed the very serious evidence that
those young people gave to us. What mechanisms are there in place
in your department to ensure that young people feed into the policies
and the programmes? Have young people had any input into the design
of the latest Sex Lottery information campaigns?
(Ms Blears) Starting with the Sex Lottery campaign,
absolutely. We have tested this almost to destruction I think
on the target audience we have. This campaign is aimed at adults
18-30. Within that group there are two distinct groups, the 18
to early 20s and the older people, and they have been involved
in the whole design from day 1. That is partly why it is controversial
and partly why it is effective, and they said time and time again
that they want information that is relevant, credible and in places
where they go. There has been talk about it being in pubs and
clubs and washrooms, but that is exactly where young people are
likely to meet their sexual partners—well, maybe not in
washrooms!—so they have said that that is where they want
the information that enables them to make those choices, so this
shows to me that if you do consult with young people in developing
your policy you will get a much more effective product at the
end of the day which means we spend our money wisely and well.
Right across the Department, in everything we do, involving young
people in social care as well as in Health Service is absolutely
fundamental and we are getting better at it. I would not say we
are perfect but we are getting better.
(Mr Twigg) I have not seen the video of the evidence
in Manchester but I have read an account of it and it certainly
fits with the discussions I have had visiting schools or with
other groups of young people, and very much reinforcing what Hazel
Blears said clearly we have to involve young people centrally
in the development of these materials, so as we take forward the
advice on personal social and health education to schools we are
involving young people at every stage. We have a very close working
relationship as a department with the National Children's Bureau
and we use them for a lot of the different materials that we develop
in the whole area of citizenship and PHSE, and I know that two
of their officials have been before you.
Andy Burnham
1121. The four young people before us last week
were all my constituents and one of them went to the same school
as I did and I asked them to give marks out of 10 on the quality
of the sex education they received at school. I have to say they
were all pretty negative and it does not seem to have improved
a great deal since I can remember in the 80s. Having said that,
though, I think there is a growing body of evidence about what
constitutes an effective—and you refer to your own departmental
work—sex education and relationships programme. Given the
mismatch between what seems to be happening on the ground in parts
of the country and what you know, what is the DfES doing to bring
the quality of what is being done in schools up to an effective
programme?
(Mr Twigg) Firstly, our guidance is still relatively
recent. What the Ofsted report shows is that whilst a majority
of schools have looked again at their own policies in the light
of our guidance, quite a significant minority of them have not,
and firstly we have to encourage more schools to do that. Clearly
the specifics of these policies are developed at the school level
and it is right that that should happen, but we do want to see
all of the schools in this country looking again to ensure that
they are taking into account all the different elements.
1122. It is right that that should happen because
one of the messages the young people are giving us is that it
is so important this information to them that it cannot be left
to the whim or the particular character of an individual within
the school, and we need to be sure that all young people are getting
an absolute basic level of sex education. There was a suggestion
that it is not good enough to let it vary from one school to another
possibly for religious reasons or whatever, and there needed to
be a basic minimum that everyone was getting.
(Mr Twigg) Yes. There is a basic minimum in terms
of the compulsory parts of sex and relationships education generally
delivered through the science curriculum, but we have a particular
project at the moment to gather the very best practice on sex
and relationships education teaching so we can spread that practice,
because I do not get a sense mostly that there is any resistance
to this in schools. It is often that it is not given sufficient
priority, but schools do want to do their best.
1123. Is there a moral question?
(Mr Twigg) Not generally.
1124. It might be the other academics that might
be taking a higher priority?
(Mr Twigg) Exactly and it may be, coming back to the
changes announced earlier this week, that with some loosening
of the secondary school curriculum there may be more scope within
the school timetable that is to be treated more seriously than
in some schools at the moment.
1125. We have received evidence about the age
at which it should start but there was consensus amongst our young
people that for them it started too late. What do you think is
the average age at which sex education should start in schools
at the moment? What is the optimum, do you think?
(Mr Twigg) Relationships education and the scientific
aspect of sex education starts in primary schools but clearly
the issues that relate to sexual relationships comes up in secondary
schools. I think I have an open mind about that and would want
to study the evidence. If young people are clearly saying that
through their evidence to you or the National Children's Bureau,
what I prefer to do is take that away and have a look at that
and see whether that has any implications for our guidance.
Chairman
1126. Can I just come in on this important point?
When you say that this will take place in secondary schools, what
age are we talking about here? At what age within secondary education
would it be?
(Mr Twigg) Mostly 14. There are elements that are
between 11 and 14.
1127. Are you aware of the average age of first
intercourse now?
(Mr Twigg) I think the average is probably 13.
1128. No, the average age of first intercourse
(Ms Blears) Sixteen.
(Mr Twigg) I thought it was a trick question!
1129. I hope you are wrong on the answer you
gave! The point I would make is that, if the average age is 16,
then obviously there are some starting well before 14.
(Ms Blears) About a third are having first sex under
16.
1130. It is a fact that there are many girls
who are menstruating in primary education, so is this not an issue
that we need to be looking at very seriously?
(Mr Twigg) Yes. This has been looked at in some detail
and it is set out in our guidance and also the Ofsted report what
we are expecting at each stage. What I think I prefer to do is
take that away today and look at whether we need to be introducing
some of the elements that come in at 14 at an earlier stage in
secondary or even primary.
Andy Burnham
1131. Picking up on that, young people also
talk about pressure or expectation that they may become increasingly
sexually active at a younger age. Do you think there is a danger
that, if it starts too early, that may reinforce that pressure
on young people to be sexually active? It is a difficult balance.
(Mr Twigg) Yes, but I think the evidence is pretty
clear that sex and relationships education does not have that
and, if sex and relationships education is partly about making
clear that young people have choices and that they can say no,
it could have a positive impact in terms of issues like teenage
pregnancy and sexually transmitted infections.
1132. Finally, given the variation within schools
and how some schools go about implementing the guidance from the
Department and others, we have heard a number of calls for the
PSHE sex education element to be made a statutory part of the
national curriculum, because it is so important to young people
and their lives and their life chances. What is the latest thinking
in the DfES about that?
(Mr Twigg) We are very sceptical about doing that.
It is put to us on a regular basis by the National Children's
Bureau who feel strongly that this should be the case. The whole
direction of policy in terms of the national curriculum as signalled
this week in the announcements on Tuesday is away from compulsory
elements in secondary, so we have taken modern and foreign languages
and design and technology out of the compulsory part of the curriculum.
Teachers have also expressed concern that, were we to make this
a compulsory part of the curriculum, it could impact on their
ability to be flexible with the way in which PHSE is taught.
1133. If it becomes compulsory, I would guess
that you would then get the back-up of better training in teacher
training colleges because people know it is something they have
to do in secondary schools, so there might be pros attached to
it?
(Mr Twigg) That is a fair point. I think looking at
the Ofsted report there is not an issue about whether schools
are delivering PSHE but about the quality and the priority it
is being given.
1134. Young people talked about the variations
of how teachers handled it and whether they can approach one teacher
or another.
(Mr Twigg) Exactly, and I think that has a lot to
do with the levels of professional development and training being
provided and, as you alluded to, teacher training, both initially
and then through teaching, and that is what we are focusing on.
What we hope to achieve as a department is the improvement without
having to add an additional element into the compulsory school
curriculum, but we will keep a watching brief on that.
Dr Naysmith
1135. On the area of teacher training, it seems
to be clear from the evidence we have had that a lot of teachers
do not feel confident, and the children recognise that the teachers
are not confident in taking some of these lessons, and it is important
to get that sorted. You imply that you are looking at it but if
we are talking about this area at all it is really something that
has to have high priority, is it not?
(Mr Twigg) Absolutely, and getting it right is important.
We had a pilot project on this with 37 volunteer teachers in the
autumn which was very successful and out of that we now have this
new programme of continued professional development that I referred
to in my opening which is going to have 750 teachers this year.
1136. But that is a drop in the ocean.
(Mr Twigg) I recognise that but it is a first step
and an important one. Also, what the Ofsted report highlighted
was some excellent practice already going on in many schools,
and I think part of what we want to do is share that excellent
practice across schools, and I referred to the particular project
we have which is looking at that at the moment.
1137. Also, in this area, what came up in our
inquiry both last week with the young but also in Sweden and in
Amsterdam when we were looking at various matters, is that it
is not necessarily teachers who do this sort of education best,
and Hazel Blears might like to comment because people talk about
community nurses and youth workers being able to do this much
better, maybe even coming into schools or special clinics associated
with schools.
(Mr Twigg) I think that is very important and a major
change we have seen in education in recent years is the far greater
number of other professionals and adults working in various roles
within schools, and I have seen very good examples of learning
mentors sometimes in the Excellence in Cities programme working
closely with young people whom teachers find it difficult to work
with, and part of that work is to do with sex and relationships
education. We also have our pilot extended schools programme,
with 25 schools around the country looking at the other facilities
that can be provided on a school site. Twenty of those are having
health projects as part of that which Hazel Blears can say more
about, and that is an important component of any successful strategy
on sexual health.
(Ms Blears) We have increasingly got a number of health
facilities attached to schools and it is a range of workers who
are in there: sometimes it is just one school nurse on his or
her own and sometimes there is back-up, with maybe a GP or a range
of primary care professionals as well. It is done entirely with
the agreement of the governors and the parents in that community,
and the early evidence of those facilities is that they are extremely
well valued and used by the pupils, and that there is a real opening
up of some of these difficult issues. Also what is interesting,
as you mentioned your visit to the Netherlands, is that I understand
that conversations there between parents are at a much greater
level on these issues than in this country, and people for cultural
reasons find it easier to talk to their mums and dads, and this
is an important area of sex and relationship education—perhaps
particularly the relationship side of the education. In my community
we have a project at the moment working with young people where
sex has almost become a kind of brutal commodity, and trying to
get the young people to have respect for themselves and their
bodies and their relationships is a key issue in trying to delay
the age of first sexual experience which is a key strand of our
teenage pregnancy strategy—to give people that sense of
self respect to make sure we can support them in the choices they
make.
Chairman
1138. May I just say that the British have a
problem with sex.
(Mr Twigg) Yes. There is a particular issue that is
highlighted in the Ofsted report about boys, and we are doing
some work, again with the National Children's Bureau, about the
advice available particularly for assisting boys and particularly
the relationship between fathers and their sons.
Chairman: We would like to come on to that later
on.
John Austin
1139. On the question of the relationships education,
surely that is something which started at a very early age and
maybe sex comes into it but on the national curriculum, as long
as personal health and social education remains outside the statutory
part of the national curriculum, does that not mean that sexual
relationship education is subject to the whim, the content, the
timing of particular government bodies and schools? Do you have
a closed mind on this or are you willing to reconsider the question
of whether it should be part of the national curriculum?
(Mr Twigg) I certainly do not have a closed mind on
it. I recognise we need to keep a watching brief on this. I have
to say the direction of education policy, particularly at secondary
level, is away from prescribing more elements of the curriculum,
so although we have quite recently introduced citizenship as a
core part of the curriculum which has some relevance for the work
on the relationship side of sex and relationships education and
I have seen some good practice where citizenship is being used
in that way, we are sceptical about adding further elements on
to it, but I am very prepared to look at the evidence and, if
there is evidence that our failure to do that results in schools
not delivering, we would have to look at it again but I do not
see that in the foreseeable future.
|
