Examination of Witnesses (Questions 137-139)
18 NOVEMBER 2003
THE RT
HON HILARY
BENN MP AND
MR ALISTAIR
FERNIE
Q137 Mr Battle: Can I welcome you,
Secretary of State. We appreciate this opportunity because as
a Committee we have been looking at development assistance to
the Palestinian Territories, we have been looking at European
funding and, of course, our own funding. As you know, most of
the Committee paid a visit to Israel and the Occupied Palestinian
Territories recently, and we are back fresh with memories of that.
When we visited the West Bank, practically, without exception,
none of the people we spoke to—local communities, NGOs—were
pressing us to press you for more funding. They were actually
saying, "What is needed is political action to resolve the
problem. We cannot simply handle it in a humanitarian way".
I wonder if I could open by asking you what you and the Department
think. Is it at all meaningful to talk of development assistance
in the present circumstances? What percentage of DFID's work is
now emergency humanitarian relief and how does that compare with
the pre- and post-Oslo period? Has there been a great shift now
to humanitarian relief or is there more developmental work going
on? What is your position?
Hilary Benn: First of all, thank
you very much for giving me the opportunity to give evidence for
this very important inquiry that you are undertaking. Like you,
I paid my first visit to the Palestinian Territories at the end
of July. I must confess that it really opened my eyes, because
there is no substitute for seeing for yourself, the effect that
the lack of a political solution to the Middle East problem, is
having in particular for the Palestinians. It really was very
striking. In those circumstances it is quite hard to see how development
can take place, the sort of development that we would share a
view on, without there being a political solution, so in a sense
the key to all of this, as I think everybody recognises, is a
political process. Having said that, I think it is right and proper
that we should do what we can in the absence of a political process
delivering that solution which will enable development to take
place, both to provide support to meet the immediate humanitarian
and other needs—and, as you will know, we have given significant
support to UNRWA for a long period of time; we have also given
support to the Palestinian Authority in that regard—while
at the same time working to build the capacity of the PA because,
in anticipation and in hope that there would be a political settlement
and a Palestinian state, you need a Palestinian Authority which
has got the capacity to do the job that a government would be
required to do in those circumstances as and when we get to that
point. And alongside that providing support to civil society because
obviously that is a very important part of successful development.
The balance of our support has reflected that process that I have
just described and we can give you the detailed figures over time[1]I
would just summarise by saying that it really does need that political
process to succeed for development to take place, and certainly
the impact of the Intifada over the last three years has taken
the Palestinian people backwards in terms of their development,
so all of the measures to help unemployment, a sense of hopelessness
and despair, the impact of the closures in particular, are just
sheer movement until you go and see that for yourself. The idea
that whether we could get from here in Westminster across the
river to Wandsworth or to Kensington would depend on whether the
road was going to be open or not. We might be wanting to go to
work, we might be wanting to visit a sick relative, but we may
or may not be able to do that. The cumulative impact of that is
very considerable and results in the condition of the Palestinian
people, certainly as I found it when I went, and I am sure it
was the same for you during your visit.
Q138 Mr Walter: You mentioned UNRWA,
the United Nations Relief and Works Agency. I was very struck
when we were there that they said that they were providing basic
needs—health, education, social housing and so on—to
something like 50% of the Palestinian population broken down by
70% in the Gaza and 40% on the West Bank. It struck me and other
members of the Committee that with a combination of UNRWA, the
various NGOs (and there are all sorts of estimates of the number
of NGOs involved, anything between 700 and 1,200), in delivering
various forms of assistance on the West Bank and in Gaza, providing
basic services to more than half the population, the Palestinian
Authority is not something that a lot of Palestinians feel they
have any ownership of, and that the credibility of the Palestinian
Authority is affected by the fact that the international community
is providing so much assistance to bodies which are not part of
the governmental structure. Is that something that you feel we
should be addressing?
Hilary Benn: Clearly UNRWA has
a particular and important status and has been doing this job
for a very long time because of its responsibility for looking
after the refugees. Of course there is the very political distinction
between those who are classified as refugees and those who are
not. And certainly my impression from my visit is that people
are very wedded to maintaining that status and that distinction
because it is an outstanding issue which, until it is resolved
by a political process, people will be very reluctant to give
up. Your question hits the nail on the head as far as the unusual
structure is concerned because you have people who are looking
to one body for a lot of support and help, and the rest of the
population looking to another. You would not start from that setup
if you were beginning afresh, but it is a fact of life, it is
a product of the politics of the situation. I think UNRWA does
a pretty good job in the circumstances, I have to say. We have
been a very strong supporter of it. We are in regular dialogue
with UNRWA about the work that they do. We are going to be commissioning
an independent study into their work next year just to satisfy
ourselves that our impression—and it was certainly my impression—that
they do a first-class job in difficult circumstances, is shared
by others. But I think it is inextricably bound up in the politics
like so many of the things no doubt we will be discussing this
afternoon.
Q139 Mr Walter: Perhaps I can move
on to what might be a more tricky political question because obviously,
in order to get a settlement, and you have talked about that in
answer to the first question, you need willingness on both sides
and a willingness on the Israeli side. A number of commentators
have suggested that because the international community is providing
all this assistance we are letting the Israelis off the hook,
that as the occupying power their international obligations should
be to provide those basic services for the people they are occupying.
Do you think that we are letting the Israeli Government off the
hook and do you think we would move towards a settlement much
more quickly if we were in a situation where the Israelis were
having to pick up the bill for the people they are occupying?
Hilary Benn: I do not think that
it would lead to faster progress towards a political settlement.
That is a personal view. Secondly, given the circumstances that
the Palestinian people find themselves in, we should all be doing
all that we can to try and assist them in those circumstances.
I am not persuaded by the argument that people should pull out
and leave the Israeli Government to pick up the consequences,
partly because, if one goes back in history and looks at what
happened post-1967, I do not think that what happened in those
circumstances in the level of support that was given would be
able to match what is being provided currently. Secondly, I think
we have a moral duty and obligation, notwithstanding the problem
of the politics, to provide help and support. And that is why
we give substantial assistance to UNRWA. The UK is a very big
supporter of UNRWA and the work that it is doing. No, I do not
think it would assist. There are other things that need to happen,
and we would all have views on that, about how we are going to
get ultimately to the peace process that is the key to solving
all of these problems.
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