Select Committee on International Development Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses(Questions 1-19)

TUESDAY 4 FEBRUARY 2003

PROFESSOR ADRIAN WOOD, DR ELAINE DRAGE AND MR IAN NEWTON

Chairman

  1. Thank you very much for coming to give evidence today. This is the first session of an inquiry we are doing on development and trade. The purpose of this inquiry, which I suspect is going to take a number of weeks, is to try to have a better understanding of just what inhibitors, what barriers exist, which prevent developing countries from benefiting more from their own natural resources and trade. As a Committee what we are trying to do is to move to specific instances, specific barriers, specific policy inhibitors which could be changed rather than a generalised discussion about how terrible it is that the North is doing well and the South is doing badly and so on and so forth. In today's session we are effectively trying to discover the government's collective line to take on a number of issues. You represent DEFRA, DTI and DFID. We have not done this before; I am afraid it is the first time this has happened. What you have in front of you is our examination paper. It is going to be slightly confusing for those at the back of the room who are going to have to guess what the questions were. We thought that, rather than reading out the questions and inviting you to reply, we would go down questions one, two and three, because what we are really after is your line to take on these issues. By giving you the questions in advance, you can also give some thought as to who is the lead on each question. We must leave it to you to decide whether departments want to add a supplementary gloss. Then when we come to the end of each section, colleagues may well have supplementaries. Does that make sense? Those at the back can then try to guess what the questions were, dependent on the answers. Is everyone happy about what we are doing?

  (Professor Wood) We shall give it a try.

  2. For those at the back at the room, the first lot of questions are about UK Government's policies, objectives, prospects and policy processes. It is key components of the development round. Why UK trade policy does not include as an objective "To increase the ability of developing countries to make genuine and well-informed policy choices in the sphere of trade" and how DFID, DEFRA, DTI and the FCO work together on trade policy? Dr Drage, would you like to lead on the first question as it is trade round and I suspect DTI take the lead on that today?
  (Dr Drage) May I ask my colleague from DFID just to do a very short introduction. I know you do not like long introductions.
  (Professor Wood) I should like to say that my Secretary of State very much welcomes this inquiry and she very much looks forward to appearing before the Committee at a later date, so indeed does Patricia Hewitt, her Cabinet colleague. I should perhaps explain that I am Chief Economist in DFID. Elaine is the Director for Trade and Development in the Europe and World Trade Directorate of the DTI. She works both on the Doha development agenda and on the EU's bilateral agreements with developing countries. Ian Newton from DEFRA is from their international trade team and his particular area of experience is the WTO agreement on agriculture.

  3. Thank you; we are grateful to all of you and we appreciate that this is a complex area involving a whole number of government departments working together and indeed others which are not here like FCO and so on. Dr Drage, question one. [Question 1: What does the Government see as the key components of a "development round"? What are the prospects of a genuine "development round" being concluded, and what are the key obstacles to such an outcome? ]
  (Dr Drage) May I set you a starter for ten? This is the government's globalisation White Paper from two years' ago[9]It is a very thorough survey, agreed by all the key departments involved in development, as to what this government wants to get out of trade and development. I would recommend that to you very strongly; you have probably all read it already.

  4. I think it has been compulsory bedtime reading for most of us.
  (Dr Drage) And for officials too. That remains the basis of the government's policy. Put briefly: what does the government want to get out of the development round? We are very conscious that to reduce poverty in many developing countries around the world it is important that they increase trade and that means increasing access to the developed countries of the world in particular. That is very true in the agriculture area, which no doubt my colleague from DEFRA will say more on. What we want to do there, in line with the commitments in the Doha development agenda, is to see that export subsidies are reduced with a view to phasing out—to quote the immortal wording—that domestic subsidies are reduced and that tariffs are reduced, in terms of the UK's use, as significantly as we possibly can get out of this round to increase access as much as possible for developing countries. That is clearly a most important target, because for many developing countries agricultural exports are the prime thing they are likely to benefit from first with any trade opening. We must not forget that there are still targets also in terms of manufactured goods and services. We want to see tariffs on those reduced, we want to see tariff peaks reduced and a lot of those tariff peaks are in areas where there is potentially comparative advantage for developing countries like textiles, clothing, footwear, steel on the manufactured goods side and a lot of agricultural products. We are very concerned to see that the issues of tariff escalation are dealt with which means that the more a primary product has added value to it the higher the tariff gets and that is a key factor in preventing diversification, which is also important for developing countries trying to grow their way out of poverty. That is the key basis of agriculture and tariffs. There is a whole range of other issues, to do with intellectual property. The government is very keen, like the rest of the EU, to see that the agenda is broadened, so that the so-called new issues of investment, competition, trade facilitation, government procurement, are negotiated on more actively after Cancun and that is because we believe that for all those four issues there are considerable potential gains for developing countries. It will mean they have more transparent and stable systems which will attract in investment, which will ensure the better that the benefits of trade liberalisation do trickle down within their economies and that is why the government will continue to argue, not always with a receptive audience, I have to say, that these four issues are worth taking forward in terms of the round. I am sure I have forgotten something but those are the main facts.

  5. Professor Wood, would you like to have a crack at question two? [Question 2: The international development community, with DFID as an influential player, emphasises the importance of developing countries taking responsibility for their own development, improving their domestic governance and increasing the accountability of governments to citizens. This message was re-iterated most clearly in the Monterrey Consensus of March 2002. Why then, doesn't UK trade policy include as an objective: "To increase the ability of developing countries to make genuine and well-informed policy choices in the sphere of trade"?]
  (Professor Wood) Yes, I would. Perhaps for the benefit of those sitting behind me, let me just say that the question is: why does UK trade policy not include as an objective "To increase the ability of developing countries to make genuine and well informed policy choices in the sphere of trade"? The answer is that I think it does. We do not actually use that particular form of words anywhere, but a very important plank of our policies and activities is what we call trade capacity building. In sheer financial terms we made a commitment in the White Paper to double the amount that we were going to put into this; in effect over the period 1998-04 to put £45 million into trade capacity building initiatives of one kind or another. We have already committed about £38 million, so we have made quite a lot of headway in this direction. This money has gone partly into multilateral initiatives, of which probably the most significant one is the Integrated Framework, which I can tell you more about if you like, but has also gone into a wide range of other activities, including important activities in Geneva such as the Advisory Centre on WTO Law, which we support. We see this as a very, very important objective, not just in terms of negotiations in Geneva, but also in terms of developing countries integrating trade policy into their own development strategies. One of the features of the Integrated Framework, one of the respects in which it is an integrating framework, is that it encourages countries to think about how trade fits into their poverty reduction strategies.

  6. Question three is really about machinery of government, how government departments work together and perhaps you could just help us with machinery of government. Is there a Cabinet sub-committee on any of this? How do officials come together? Are there committees at officials level which then feed up to a Cabinet sub-committee? Perhaps you could just help us with the machinery of government issues on this. [Question 3: How do DFID, DEFRA, DTI and the FCO work together on trade policy? Is DFID's role in trade policy similar to that which it plays in the sphere of strategic (arms) exports?]
  (Dr Drage) There is a very well-established mechanism for working together, not just the four departments you have listed of DFID, DEFRA, DTI and FCO, but our Treasury colleagues are also closely involved. Our Ministers meet in the EP Committee. A sub-group of EP is shortly to be set up which is going to monitor progress in the round even more closely and that would be meeting for the first time very shortly. At official level, for very many years, going back at least four or five I understand, there is something called the Trade Policy Group which is chaired by my Director General in DTI. This meets about every six weeks and takes papers on particular issues. That is the formal mechanism at which major issues are often decided. In addition to that, on particular topics, those of us in the particular network on the topic are in contact with each other on a daily basis through e-mail, through meetings. It is only if we cannot solve problems at official level that we bring our Ministers into it in accordance with normal government procedures. It works very smoothly and we know each other extremely well. We can disagree amicably and we can walk onto the next bit of business.

  7. Going back to question two, if it is an objective, how do you monitor to ensure that objective is met?
  (Professor Wood) I suppose really it is observation of the way in which developing countries are operating both in Geneva and in the sphere of international trade negotiations. We were all extremely pleased at the role that developing countries played in the negotiations at Doha, which was a real step change from anything which had been seen previously and owed something to the capacity building which we and others had done to help them prepare for that. I should mention that if you are interested in knowing more about our trade capacity building work, we have a little pamphlet of three or four pages, which lists all the things we are doing and which I can give to members of the Committee[10]

  Chairman: We should be interested to see that.

Mr Khabra

  8. The present international trading system works to the advantage of rich countries. How do you think globalisation can work in the interests of the countries which have poverty, as the rich countries are dragging their feet on preparing to change the current situation?
  (Professor Wood) You are quite right to emphasise that rich countries need to reform their own policies in order to enable poor countries to benefit fully from trade. Indeed one of our key objectives in the Doha round is to bring forward those sorts of changes in rich country policies. It would also be true to say, though, that even in the absence of changes in rich country policies, there is scope for developing countries to benefit from participation in world trade. We have seen a number of developing countries over the last three or four decades which, even in a flawed international trade system, have succeeded in making a lot of progress towards reducing poverty by expansion of exports and increased participation in world trade.

Chairman

  9. During the Jubilee campaign which related to debt, the NGOs and others were very much engaged and seemed, if I might put it crudely, to be on the same side. Somehow one gets the impression that the Trade Justice Movement, which is an umbrella, either doubts your collective commitment, or your collective objectives. Do you meet with NGOs and the Trade Justice Movement to try to discuss language and policy? Otherwise a lot of energy and time are taken up by them throwing brickbats at Whitehall and you doubtless feeling misunderstood and unloved and Members of Parliament sometimes getting confused as to what the differences are about.
  (Professor Wood) Our international trade department has regular meetings with NGOs concerned with trade. These meetings are quite often addressed by ministers; the Secretary of State has played an active role in this. This is very good and frequent contact. Trade and development is certainly an area in which there are still a fair number of disagreements and precisely for that reason, we are very interested in talking as much as possible with our NGO colleagues. It would also be fair to say that the areas of disagreement have actually shrunk over the last three or four years.
  (Dr Drage) It is not just DFID which rightly talks to NGOs, my ministers welcome the dialogue they too have. On a regular basis Baroness Symons chairs the Trade Consultative Policy Forum which meets every eight weeks or so. We sometimes discuss a specific topic and sometimes will range more generally, in addition to which NGOs come in and talk to officials on a regular basis. We welcome that dialogue as a contribution to our thinking. It is also an opportunity for us to inform NGOs in an informal way where we are in the round and what some of the constraints are, often on the objectives which we share.

  Mr Colman: May I say that it would be helpful, as this is a semi-public meeting, if members of this Committee could know when that schedule is taking place and if we had the time we were perhaps able to attend those meetings? I understand they are very detailed and could advance our knowledge of where the government's position is.

Alistair Burt

  10. There are two scoping questions and they cover a similar sort of area. Firstly, how is British interest defined in the area in which you work? Are British interests wholly subsumed in international aspirations or interest, or are there distinctive British interests which you are required to look for in the work which you do? Are British interests different in different types of activity? Are they different in the agricultural field from the manufacturing field, for example? Could you give us some sense of this?
  (Dr Drage) The way certainly the Department of Trade and Industry and I think the government more generally look at these issues is yes, you have to consider whether you have an important national issue, say if you are going to reduce tariffs on footwear, what the implications would be in the UK and for employment in certain areas of the UK. You need to take that into account and to balance it with the poverty reduction which might result in certain exporting countries, like Pakistan. It is for government and ministers to balance those interests in the same way that they do in a whole range of other policies. Yes, it is right and proper for the government to look at what the more narrow, domestic interests are on all these issues, but then they have to place it in the wider context and, equally, balance the short-term gains and losses with the longer-term gains and losses and not just look at the immediate issue. I know that is a point Patricia Hewitt made very strongly in a speech she made in Brussels last week, which members of the Committee will either have just had or will very shortly be having from my Secretary of State[11]

  (Mr Newton) The same goes for my department. We have an agenda for agriculture, but part of that agenda is focused on the implications for developing countries. If I might add, we also meet regularly with NGOs and we share the information we receive and impart to those NGOs with the other departments here represented.

  11. My second question was to ask a little bit about the areas of conflict and disagreement between departments; even though we understand the common objective, all of us who have sat on ministerial committees understand that departments do have their issues. It would be helpful if you could spell out what the main areas of disagreement are which you come across most regularly and have to overcome.
  (Dr Drage) It is often a question not so much of the substance of the issue, but the tactics of how you get to an objective which is shared. Is it right to push and shove hard on EU policy at this point or is it better to wait? The same question goes to WTO. My experience over the last two and a half years, when I have had the privilege of doing this job, is that it is actually tactics which we disagree on rather than the substance of where we want to get.
  (Professor Wood) I would say that in so far as there is disagreement over substance, it comes back really to what Elaine was saying earlier about the need to strike balances between gains and losses and short-term and long-term considerations. Necessarily DFID is going to attach more weight to benefits for poor people in poor countries than other Whitehall departments. It is a matter of balance. I have been in DFID a relatively short time, two and a half years, and I have been very struck by the degree to which there is a shared view of a lot of these issues, much more so than I would have expected coming in from the outside.
  (Mr Newton) I am not sure whether the question was related to areas of disagreement with developing countries or within Europe or what?

  Chairman: Nuances between Whitehall departments.

Alistair Burt

  12. Absolutely; in general where you are most likely to clash and Elaine has answered that question perfectly effectively.
  (Mr Newton) For my part I can only add that I have never been in a job where I have had so much inter-relationship with other departments in Whitehall and it works very well.

Chris McCafferty

  13. How does the trade policy group see the empowerment of women as an objective in itself? I am thinking particularly of grants, start-up money, seed corn to help the women start small businesses, a lot of Africa is ravaged now with HIV, women are in charge, head of households and in some countries have always worked in the fields anyway. I know that for DFID it is clearly a very important issue, but I was wondering about the group as a whole.
  (Professor Wood) As you rightly say, gender is a key dimension of DFID policy. Most of the things which would be beneficial to women in the area of trade are really the same things which would be beneficial in other areas. When we are talking about trade, we are talking about international trade, but actually the great bulk of trade in the common sense of the word is within countries, and enabling women to participate in production and commerce is very central. There has been a certain amount of analysis of the differential impact by gender of trade changes in developing countries, some research in which I personally have been involved. What comes out of that work, which really reinforces what I was saying before, is that there are very few distinctive things that you would want to do to support women in the context of international trade than in the context of domestic production or trade.
  (Dr Drage) Gender is an issue we perhaps have not thought enough about in the specifically trade policy sense. I went to see the National Commission on Women only yesterday to talk about it. We would acknowledge that when we published the consultation document on GATS three or four months ago now, we should have put a section in on the gender effect of that and that is an area where we need to think a bit more broadly about it. I would add of course that a disproportionate number of women and children are amongst the world's very poor, so actions which you take to relieve poverty should benefit women disproportionately.

Chairman

  14. Let us move on to trade, trade policy and poverty reduction. Question four, models of the relationship between trade, trade policy and poverty reduction. Professor Wood, would you like to start the batting on that? These questions are both aimed at the extent to which there is a trickle-down impact on trade policy to helping poor people. [Question 4: What is the UK Government's model of the relationship between trade, trade policy, and poverty reduction? What assumptions is the model based on? What is the evidence for these assumptions? How long is the "longer run"? Where does the modelling on which UK-trade policy is based take place? (Treasury, DTI, DFID, OECD, World Bank, WTO?)]
  (Professor Wood) The UK Government has no formal model in the sense of a set of equations which are written down somewhere and which people simulate from time to time. It does have a fairly well-defined analytical framework for thinking about it. I suppose you can divide it into two parts: one is the impact of trade on growth. The aggregate per capita income growth in developing countries. The other is the degree to which growth in average per capita income translates into gains for poor people within those countries. Sometimes this distinction is not a very important one, because in very poor countries, most people are poor, so there is a strong presumption that anything which accelerates growth is going to benefit most poor people. Our view is that engagement in the world economy is good for growth, and the main long-run reason for believing this is that increased exposure to international trade provides channels through which flows from the global pool of knowledge enter a country. A lot of developing countries are poor because they are technologically very backward. One of the most important channels for international technology transfer is international business linkages of one kind or another. In the long run that is what we think is the main link between increased openness to trade and increased growth. Trade policy is part of what is needed to expand trade, but I would emphasise that it is only part of it. If you look at the reasons why, for example, many African countries are so little involved in world trade, it is not to do with trade policies in the ordinary sense, either in their countries or in other countries, but with inadequate transport infrastructure, causing very high transport costs. That is a very important component to think about in the policy context as well. On the issue of the translation of growth into poverty reduction: there are two dimensions to this. One is what increased exposure to trade does to the distribution of income and inequality? What we know from theory and evidence is that the effects are very mixed. It depends very much on the country, on the particular set of resources it has, on its starting point in terms of level of development. On average the effect appears to be in neither one direction nor the other, but there is quite wide variance around that average. We understand some of the reasons why that variance exists quite well, others we do not. I said there was a second dimension which it is very important to bear in mind, which is that even if the overall income distribution does not change, beneath the surface of that unchanging inequality there is going to be a lot of turbulence. You could have a situation where you have gainers and losers who on average roughly cancel out in terms of numbers, so you do not see any impact, on the degree of inequality. Nonetheless, there are losers as well as gainers. That is something which is unavoidable. Development is all about change, change is all about very mixed effects and trade is one very important component of that. We do believe that we can do something to mitigate potential adverse effects on poor people both in the first sense I was talking about, increased inequality, and in the second sense of turbulence which causes there to be losers. In particular, to use a phrase which comes out of the book by Alan Winters and others to which we referred in the written evidence, "predict, pre-empt and protect". Before you do anything which is going to increase the exposure of a low income country to trade, try to predict what the impact is going to be on particular groups of poor people. It is not easy, but possible to make some headway. To pre-empt means try to take measures which mean that in advance you have already set in train policies and processes which will in particular enable groups of poor people who are potential losers to shift easily into other lines of activities. To protect is really development of a system of social protection which prevents those who, for one reason or another, cannot shift into other lines of activities, from suffering too badly. That is the philosophy.

Mr Walter

  15. I am interested in what Professor Wood says. If we go back to this orange-coloured brief, Save the Children noted the UNCTAD analysis which was that extensive trade liberalisation amongst least developed countries during the 1990s has been associated with rising poverty and dramatic rises in poverty for those countries which have liberalised most. This brings me to some of the words you were using, when you said that there can be losers and in fact that is in your brief to us. Just a moment ago you were using the words "protection" and "mitigation". Should we not be looking more at having liberalisation alongside some other form of trade policy? Trade promotion—may I use those words—is where we should be focused rather than just saying we have opened up the market, now guys it is up to you.
  (Professor Wood) That is a very good way to put it. I was mentioning to Mr Khabra the gains which developing countries have experienced from trade and I particularly emphasised expansion of exports. Most poor people are poor because they do not produce very much. Expansion of exports associated with expansion of production is actually the way to make them better off. Increased liberalisation in the sense of increased access to imports can also be quite helpful in that process because you need to import large quantities of producer goods in order to be able to expand production rapidly. Indeed many poor people gain from access to cheaper consumer goods of one kind and another. You are absolutely right that trade promotion is in a way a much better phrase than trade liberalisation in terms of encapsulating the philosophy of what we are trying to do.

  16. What are we doing in that respect?
  (Professor Wood) We are trying to tackle some of the barriers to exports in particular countries. One of the obstacles to involvement of African countries in trade is poor infrastructure. We encourage countries in their poverty reduction strategies to focus on reducing those barriers. Fundamentally we are simply trying to encourage expansion of production by encouraging countries to provide a better enabling environment for business. At the end of the day it is going to be expansion of private production which is going to create growth and lift countries out of poverty. We are trying to encourage poor countries to overcome a wide range of things which currently are discouraging investment in poor countries. That is fundamentally how we are going about it.
  (Dr Drage) I suspect you are also thinking about the issues of how we are using UK aid money to help grow entrepreneurship in a number of developing countries. I know one or two projects which DFID certainly have in South Africa and there is something going in Ghana. Things are happening on the ground in terms of growing the entrepreneurship. If you like, trade policy is about trying to open the door so that countries can export, but you need to grow that entrepreneurship to help them walk through that door and come into a better and richer world.

  17. What I am trying to home in on in a simplistic way is that trade liberalisation means that the guys from Coca-Cola can go and set up their marketing department in less developed countries but the entrepreneurs in the less developed country do not necessarily have even the know-how or the resources to market outside their own country.
  (Dr Drage) That is a very important point. What often happens, if you look at the issue of green beans from Kenya, which you will find in many of the supermarkets you go into, is that you need to encourage partnerships with the big buyer in developed countries to assist producers in poor countries to cope with what are often rather high standards for health and safety, hygiene and packaging so they can take the opportunities of reduced tariff barriers. Addressing the non-tariff barriers is almost as important as addressing the tariff barriers in the context of the round.

Mr Khabra

  18. I am sure you are aware of the impact of liberalisation on the interests of small businesses and small farmers, in India in particular. Would you agree that there has to be a balance drawn between liberalisation and the interests of small farmers or small businesses? The gap between the rich and the poor has not been shortened in any way, it has been widened. The effect of liberalisation on the Indian economy has been a bulging of the middle class who are getting more and more money but the poor are still poor.
  (Professor Wood) India is a subject in which I personally am keenly interested and it is a country in which DFID is keenly interested because one third of the world's dollar-a-day poor are in India. The potential impact of trade liberalisation is very important to us. My own view is that what India needs most in order to reduce poverty is expansion of large-scale manufacturing for export in the same way that the East Asian countries have done. India has a potentially very strong comparative advantage in the production of garments, footwear and similar kinds of activities. What is striking about India is how incredibly small the formal manufacturing sector is. In the late 1990s, there were more unemployed manufacturing workers in China than there were employed manufacturing workers in India. India needs to do things which will cause tens of millions of people to move out of small-scale agriculture and small-scale non-agricultural activities into factories. The main things it needs to do are to improve its infrastructure and to reduce the bureaucracy which makes it very hard for Indian businessmen to do business abroad and for foreign businessmen to do business in India. Elaine was mentioning the role of, for example, UK supermarkets in sourcing green beans from Kenya, but if you look at labour-intensive manufactures like clothing and footwear, the key to success for low income countries is to get into international supply chains there as well. International buyers, for example of footwear, are very reluctant to engage with India. They would rather go to Vietnam, just because of the cost and difficulty of getting intermediate inputs into India and getting the final product out of India, particularly in any kind of just-in-time consumer quality oriented supply chain.

Mr Colman

  19. May I say that I hope later in our investigation we will actually invite the major UK retailers here to talk to us because they offer the major way to take many of the poor of the world out of their poverty? It is something I was involved in prior to coming to this House. I want to take us back to the overall pattern of this, which is the big overview and the area of modelling. Sorry to come back to you, Elaine, but you almost have three groups modelling. You have WTO, you have the World Bank and you have UNCTAD; UNCTAD seen as pro-poor and WTO and the World Bank seen as pro-rich. Is there any sort of work going on to try to get a common model of approach? I know it is difficult, difficult for the UK economy, as the Treasury Select Committee finds out every month, but is there any attempt to try to bring these three together to enable lay people like ourselves to have some idea of the reality of the situation?
  (Professor Wood) The World Bank would be mortified at your description of them as pro-rich. They see their mission as being entirely pro-poor. There are no big differences in their modelling work in terms of the analytical frameworks or the approaches which are taken by the Bank as compared with UNCTAD or WTO. I know the UNCTAD people very well. A lot of the differences are differences in emphasis, in the interpretation of results. If you look at what numbers come out of this analysis in terms of particular countries or particular sectors and who gains and who loses through patterns of trade liberalisation, it is not particularly controversial. Everybody works around an increasingly widely-used international system of modelling called GTAP, which is a US-based network of modellers with models in virtually every country and most international organisations are plugged into the GTAP framework. One can take a particular set of model results and look at the numbers from the either half-full perspective or the half-empty perspective. Many of the differences between the UNCTAD interpretation and the World Bank interpretation boil down essentially to what kind of spin you put on the numbers which are coming out rather than any kind of fundamental difference in how they think the world works.


9   Eliminating World Poverty: Making Globalisation Work for the Poor', White Paper on International Development, CM 5006, published December 2000. Back

10   Further information to follow. Back

11   "Trade and Development: Europe's Role in Spreading Prosperity", speech made by the Rt Hon Patricia Hewitt MP, Secretary of State for Trade and Industry at the European Parliament on 21st January 2003. Back


 
previous page contents next page

House of Commons home page Parliament home page House of Lords home page search page enquiries index

© Parliamentary copyright 2003
Prepared 21 March 2003