Examination of Witnesses (Question 60-67)
TUESDAY 11 MARCH 2003
MS RACHEL
LIPSCOMB, MS
SALLY DICKINSON,
MR NEIL
CLARKE AND
MR SID
BRIGHTON
60. Both parties today are reasonably content?
(Ms Dickinson) Yes, we would not agree to any further
development of that or delegation.
(Mr Clarke) The Justices' Clerks' Society has suggested
to the department there are ways we could further assist magistrates.
I think it is fair to say that magistrates do not want that assistance
at the present time. This act replicates fully the existing arrangements
whereby any powers that we have are under the justices' clerks'
rules and have to be approved by secondary legislation. So we
have no concern about that, certainly.
Dr Whitehead
61. Could I ask you about fines officers? I
note in the brief note from the Magistrates' Association that
you have, shall we say, worries about the far-reaching powers
of the fines officers and the possibility that because they can
vary a fine without reference to the magistrates who imposed the
fine they may, as it were, get out of control—I think is
the underlying suggestion of your passage. Is that a view you
still hold?
(Ms Lipscomb) There has been a lot of debate on this,
as you know, in committee and we are satisfied that the administrative
powers of the fines officers will help to improve the collection
of fines and that there would only be one opportunity to vary
and a court would always have the opportunity to reserve a specific
case. A very unusual or a fragile sort of case could be retained
by the Court to supervise.
(Mr Clarke) A lot of the powers that have been given
are ones the Courts have been seeking for a long time, but I think
the power to vary the rate of payment should have attached to
it a requirement of the establishment of a change in circumstances
because, at the present time, the fines officers, without a change
in circumstance, can change the decisions of the Court and that
would seem to be more of an appellate function which it is inappropriate
for an administrative person to undertake. So the basic premise
of operation is okay, but we would want to see that that variation
could only happen on an identifiable change in circumstances,
otherwise they would be able to second-guess the judicial tribunal.
Mr Dawson
62. I am not terribly knowledgeable about this
but it rather sounds as if the appointment of fines officers is
a bit of a slap in the face for magistrates and justices. Is it
not about saying "Well, enough fines have not been collected,
or fines have not been enforced properly"? Is there not an
issue about the levels to which fines are imposed upon people
who are not in a position to pay them in any case?
(Ms Lipscomb) The key to good fine enforcement is
how the fine is arranged and fixed in the first place, because
otherwise the problem does not arise. In many areas of fine enforcement
the fines office is operating and doing all the administrative
work that is anticipated in the Bill now, within the limits that
they can. What has come out of all the research and working parties
that have been going on for years and years on fines is that you
have constantly got to be following people, chasing people, and
changing the ways that you go about getting the money in. Sixty
per cent of people pay their fines straight away, but it is about
20% of the other 40 that are the intractable defaulters. One of
the things that we very much welcome is being able to register
the debt, because the fine problem has become, I think, much more
significant since credit has increased so dramatically and people
live with high levels of debt.
(Mr Clarke) I would not say that the collection of
fines is at an acceptable level in England and Wales at this stage.
I think it needs to improve dramatically. What we have been asking
for are increased powers to enable that to happen—exactly
these powers, in fact. Surprisingly, now it has been given to
this other person I suspect he will be more successful than we
have because he has got the powers that we wanted to be effective
previously. It is almost a self-fulfilling prophecy: this creature
will bring in more fines because he has got the powers necessary
to do it. Despite the downturn in the last quarter, some courts
in the country are making real in-roads into the collection of
fines and it is now a much higher priority than ever it was before.
Extra funding has now been available from 1 April, which should
mean that we can attack it at full force.
63. You do feel that this will have a positive
impact on collection?
(Mr Clarke) The powers in here are manna from heaven
that we have been seeking for a long time.
(Ms Lipscomb) The key issue with fines is actually
tracing the defaulter or getting them to court in default. In
relation to many of the fines we impose there is nobody in court
at the time we impose them, and that is the big trial.
Mr Soley
64. I am interested in this area because I think
you are right that payment of fines reflects society, but that
has to be compared to changing circumstances, and I am not referring
to a change in income but to personality and other problems. Do
you have any views on the nature of the people appointed to these
offices? What sort of training should they have? Should they be
able to make means inquiries, in effect? Should you be appointing
people who have, if you like, a police background as opposed to
a social work background? What are you looking for in fines officers?
(Mr Clarke) At the moment we have civilian enforcement
officers and when they originally came into existence the vast
majority of them were former police officers, which did not seem
terribly logical at the time because it had just been taken off
the police because it was totally ineffective. So putting them
in charge of it did seem to be going down the wrong path. Over
a period of time we have established that there are a wide range
of backgrounds that work very effectively, and what you are looking
for is people with good communication skills and effective administration.
This is going to be an administrative post, and I think we are
very keen that it retains that administrative area. Therefore,
we would not want them doing means inquiries. At the present time
on completion of a form, if it is straightforward, administrative
staff can say "That is a reasonable offer that that person
is making" and the justices' clerk can give parameters within
which they can operate a minimum payment and a maximum payment
that you would expect to be collected in the normal circumstances.
So I think that they have got to be trained in addition to the
existing arrangements for civilian enforcement officers. We are
looking for people with the skills that we, in effect, discovered
by working with civilian enforcement officers. When they are talking
about registering debt they are going to have to have a pretty
wide understanding of the civil justice system as well as the
criminal justice system. So a much broader education would be
welcome.
65. That is actually quite a qualified job,
in a sense, is it not? A job where you will require quite a bit
of extra training.
(Mr Clarke) All I can say is that it takes up a section
and a schedule, which is more than the justices' clerks get. I
would take it that they regard it as important.
Chairman
66. Just a quick point: you have not persuaded
the Lord Chancellor not to abolish the supplemental list of magistrates?
(Ms Lipscomb) We believe that he has conceded that
the supplemental list should be retained as a historical record.
67. As a historical record?
(Ms Lipscomb) And recognition of the value and the
service that magistrates provide.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed.
We are very grateful for your assistance.
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