Examination of Witnesses (Questions 240-251)
COLIN BARNES
AND JULIE
DOUGHTY
6 MAY 2003
Q240 Mr Soley: But this same system
is the one that you might use, or people with you might use, to
put on information about children?
Ms Doughty: We cannot actually
use that system. All we have got is what we have brought in. So
we may have brought in quite sophisticated computer programmes
on other computers in some offices. For example, there are some
very good private law systems written on Microsoft Access, but
the decision was made, by I do not know who, that Microsoft Access
would not be on the new computers and some of those private law
teams have just completely lost all of their data. London particularly,
I know, has horrendous problems with trying to maintain their
data and has a big spreadsheet system that is always falling over.
But I mean I have recently been sent a memo from the Operations
Directorate saying that we cannot have a case management system
because it has not actually been decided yet what work we are
actually doing and we need to be clearer about the approach to
be taken to the work before they can write a case management system.
And yet it has been worked on for three years.
Q241 Mr Soley: If you had a Microsoft
package that gave you the ability to manage cases that your people
are dealing with, you would like that presumably?
Mr Barnes: No. We are a national
organisation. We want to get the benefits of a single case management
system, ideally where practitioners can update it as they are
working on the cases and they have the benefit of reports back
off that system. The systems that we use, which reflects the fact
that they were set up in 1997, were `stand alone' systems that
administrators have to put all the data in. So what happens is
that CAFCASS practitioners fill in forms and they are sent to
administrators and the administrators then load this information
on to the `stand alone' systems. In private law, they do not even
have that `stand alone' system. They are often using just pencil
and paper and charts on walls to record the names. The local systems
though were geared to a totally different purpose. They were only
geared to store the names and the families that were in one locality
and they were geared to produce an annual report. The statistics
came off about three months after the work was done because it
took the time for the CAFCASS practitioner to fill in the form,
send it in the to the administrator, then administrator then had
to enter it on to the computer. I could then run off reports etc.
Now, the problem is that CAFCASS is actually operating as if it
has implemented a fully networked, up to date, online, immediately
updated system. So they expect from me—in fact, I have to
go back and do this tomorrow—reports about what happened
last month; i.e. how many cases were taken on, what types of cases,
how many were closed. I have to go to the stand alone system,
print off reports which are not really accurate because by the
8th of the month most of the practitioners have not had time under
the pressures, especially at the moment, to fill in the forms
and send them even to the administrator and the administrator
is also under pressure. So I print off reports which I then do
my best to interpret into what happened last month, fill it into
a spreadsheet that is on the new computer, email that off to someone
at the regional level, who then puts it together with all of the
ones from other localities and they then email that to headquarters.
Q242 Chairman: Staff time is being
used to input data written on paper by practitioners on to the
system?
Mr Barnes: Yes, absolutely.
Q243 Mr Soley: And it is actually
out of date?
Mr Barnes: Indeed. And there are
lots of other examples.
Q244 Mr Soley: You could not tell
very quickly, unless you picked up the phone and spoke to the
person, where a particular case was at, why there was a delay,
what was happening? Is that right?
Mr Barnes: That is right.
Q245 Mr Soley: And yet it would be
fairly easy to have a software package that could do that. Although
I was getting slightly worried about the ability to access confidential
data on the system you are describing.
Mr Barnes: Obviously confidentiality
and security of the data would have to be specified clearly.
Q246 Mr Soley: I am not sure you
have got the facilities. I do not know what you have got, have
you?
Mr Barnes: At the moment?
Q247 Mr Soley: Yes.
Mr Barnes: No. I mean I could
tell you a story—there have been several break-ins to CAFCASS
offices and I have been given the job of trying to get data from
the administrators about things like delay and as worked on cases
from these old systems and whenever I hear there is a break in,
I ring them up and say "Did they take the computer?"
and of course there is a lot of confidential information. They
never do because they always take the new computers.
Q248 Mr Soley: Maybe this is a clever
ploy.
Mr Barnes: But then again, the
actual security of that data—I mean there is a terrifying
risk—you know, the hard disc just went on one and because
there is no contract necessarily to provide a proper back up,
it is left to local administrators to set that up. And to be quite
honest, as budgets get tighter and tighter, those sort of things
can be forgotten about. The security of the data of these people,
who are most vulnerable people, is not good.
Q249 Mr Soley: You mentioned a figure
of 5.9 million, I think, for a payroll package. Is that right?
Ms Doughty: No, it was the hardware.
Mr Barnes: It was for all the
hardware, in the accounts—and this is why I would hope that
an outside body could take a look—I know the National Audit
Office did audit the "year one accounts", but most of
the spend on the hardware was done in the Project Team era.
Q250 Mr Soley: You are not aware,
are you, of how much has been spent on this new system altogether?
Mr Barnes: I know that there is
a very high revenue cost. I think it was about £3 million
in the first year.
Q251 Mr Soley: But that is not delivering
a system that enables you to track and monitor cases?
Mr Barnes: No. I mean all we are
paying for is those basic office systems that I referred to earlier.
Mr Soley: We might need to ask for those
figures actually.
Chairman: Thank you very much indeed
for the help you have given us this afternoon, Mr Barnes and Ms
Doughty. Thank you.
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