Evidence before the Committee (Questions
360-379)
WEDNESDAY 10 SEPTEMBER 2003
360. "Pedlars have long been a feature of
life in this country, but many people are unclear about precisely
what the term means today. To same it is an anachronism with little
relevance to modern life. A quick glance at the Pedlars Act -
and, indeed, the subsequent legislation of 1881 - supports the
view that the hon. Gentleman expressed. For example, references
to 'caster of metals', 'mender of chairs' and a person who 'travels
and trades' without any horse or other beast 'bearing or drawing
burden' certainly prompt questions about the continued..."
Is it okay?
361. This is for my benefit, it does bolster
my argument, the reply from the Under-Secretary of State.
362. CHAIRMAN: It would help if you could paraphrase
it or encapsulate it because MPS are very wordy and they can talk
until the cows come home and I would not want you to copy that.
363. JOHN ROBERTSON: Especially ministers.
364. CHAIRMAN: Especially government ministers.
365. MR THOMPSON: "The essential point is
that pedlars are expected to move from place to place. Court judgments
in recent have tended to confirm this. The effect of those judgments
is that a pedlar must keep on the move, apart from when conducting
a sale. This gives a useful pointer to the type of trader we are
talking about.... Street trading is a more regulated and costly
business than peddling because it is a more substantial operation.
A street trader can establish a fixed pitch, which will inevitably
involve the local authority in cleaning and other costs that we
can fairly readily imagine....The difference is that he has the
opportunity to sell a wide range of goods and to build up a regular
turnover, customer recognition and, in some cases, customer loyalty.
I say that, not in defence of pedlars, but merely to draw attention
to the fact that there is a crucial distinction.
366. "A pedlar who is genuinely operating
as a pedlar has no fixed spot. He must keep on the move....Pedlars
are therefore offering a rather different service from that offered
by street traders. That is reflected in the 'lighter touch' regulation
that they enjoy.
367. "I understand how frustrating it must
be for established traders to face competition from what are in
effect opportunistic operators." They should not suffer from
fly-by-night, unlicensed competition. "It is not entirely
clear how far the problems we have heard about today are caused,
or exacerbated, by unlicensed street traders as opposed to genuine
pedlars.
368. He goes on to address the fines and the
costs involved, a fine of £1,000. "The fact remains,
however, that in these circumstances remedies are available."
The Bill has an amendment in it so that with the issuing of a
fixed penalty, and in the City of Westminster now, goods can still
be confiscated and destroyed if the courts so wish. "In addition,
he may be causing an obstruction under the Highways Act 1980."
369. "Gentleman," that is Dr Brand,
"so I shall write to him and attempt to provide some sensible
guidance as to how an authority should operate in those circumstances."
370. "Many of those involved in unlicensed
street trading are not pedlars and, what is more, make no claim
to be so. I know from my own experience on Merseyside where there
is a particular problem. I have had direct experience of it in
the centre of Liverpool so I do not want to underplay it....However,
a bona fide pedlar has to be able to carry his wares. Given the
more limited range of goods that he can sell, I am not sure how
far he can be said to damage the business of street traders."
A legal pedlar, I might add. "It could be argued that the
competition offered by pedlars is no more unfair than that between
street traders and small shops - it is a matter of different considerations
- or between small shops and out-of-town stores."
371. The Under-Secretary of State answers most
of the questions raised today and answers them in the same way
as I have done. He finally says: "At this stage I have reached
no firm conclusions about the merits of further action in relation
to either pedlars or street traders. Although I am not yet persuaded
that increasing controls on pedlars would greatly alleviate the
difficulties experienced by street traders and local authorities,
I can assure the hon. Gentleman that I will look carefully at
the issues in considering our future policy. In doing that, I
shall reflect carefully on the points that he and the hon. Member
for Somerton and Frome have raised during the debate."
372. The Minister there refers to "future
policy". Recently, on 11 June 2002, in answer to an Early
Day Motion from Brian Cotter, MP "To ask the Secretary of
State for Trade and Industry what representations she has received
regarding the (a) reform and (b) repeal of the Pedlars Act 1871;
and what plans she has to amend legislation to street trading."
Miss Melanie Johnson, who is the Minister for Competition, Consumers
and Markets, replied "One representation has been received
suggesting reform or repeal of the Pedlars Act 1871 from Chelmsford
Borough Council. I have no plans to amend street trading legislation."
373. CHAIRMAN: You are advancing the argument
that as the Government does not feel it should change, why should
the London boroughs in this Act bring about a change?
374. MR THOMPSON: This is more a matter of fact
that it is a private Act. It certainly appears to be Government
policy that the law regarding street trading and pedlars should
not be changed and, therefore, serious consideration should be
given to that effect by the Committee as it is a general Act,
the Pedlar's Certificate.
375. CHAIRMAN: Okay. Mr Thompson, I do not want
to cut you short or curtail what you are advancing but as far
as I can see you have given a very valuable background into the
whole way in which pedlars operate and you have expressed concerns
along with other people about the counterfeit goods sold by some
unscrupulous people in this area. You have advanced an argument,
as far as I can see, that the police are not rigorous enough in
the issue of Pedlar Certificates and that you have made moves
to strengthen that throughout the country, for which you are to
be congratulated. You have also raised criticism that you feel
that the council enforcement of the Pedlars Act has not been rigorous
enough and if properly enforced there would be no problem.
376. MR THOMPSON: If I may just say on that point
I feel because the Act is hoping to come into force, or the amendments,
the councils have exacerbated the situation for themselves.
377. CHAIRMAN: Finally, you have said that because
the Government in total has said they do not propose to produce
any further policy changes then you are saying why should this
particular Bill that is in front of us today go down a different
route.
378. MR THOMPSON: Yes, sir.
379. CHAIRMAN: I think that is very helpful,
thank you very much.
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