Evidence before the Committee (Questions
520-539)
WEDNESDAY 10 SEPTEMBER 2003
520. Yes.
(Mr Stratton) They would just apply for the
licence.
521. If they were unable to get a licence because
the quota was complete, what position would they be in then? What
would they do if they wanted to carry on their professional dog-walking
activities?
(Mr Stratton) Sorry, you are talking about
a professional dog-walker now.
522. You are not suggesting they are unlikely
to be within the quota.
(Mr Stratton) A professional dog-walker will
have to find another park or open space where he can walk his
dogs, or her dogs. They bring their dogs in cars. That is their
affair.
523. Assuming there is enough quota for them
in an adjacent borough.
(Mr Stratton) I am sure there would be. We
would find anybody a time slot within Wandsworth at the moment.
We are not that ----
524. Can I take you to the designation procedure
that is contained in Schedule 2. It is a standard procedure which
embraces advertisement in public local newspapers and invites
objections within a 28-day period. Is that right?
(Mr Stratton) Yes.
525. What happens if you get a lot of objections
to the particular designated area that you have chosen?
(Mr Stratton) In Wandsworth's case we would
designate all parks and open spaces within the borough. I do not
believe that we will have, in fact I am absolutely certain, any
objectors. We will actually have an enormous amount of support.
526. Again, that is not necessarily true of the
other boroughs, is it? That is your position because you, as Wandsworth,
have really been driving this provision.
(Mr Stratton) Yes, but as people in other
boroughs suddenly find more and more professional dog-walkers
are coming into their area and there are larger numbers of groups
of dogs taking over their parks and open spaces I think that the
residents there, too, would be supportive of the imposition of
this.
527. You have to take into consideration those
objections. Is there any provision for that? Say it was contentious,
as it might be, is there any provision for the public to be involved
in the analysis of the objection? Is there an inquiry procedure?
(Mr Stratton) The decision would be made in
the council at the relevant committee, and that is where individuals
could petition or they could petition their local councillor outside
the council chamber.
528. Is there any specific ground in the Bill
that would enable a body or an individual to challenge the designation?
(Mr Stratton) No. Once the decision is made,
the decision is made.
529. MR MUNDY: Thank you very much.
Examined by THE COMMITTEE
530. CHAIRMAN: I would like to ask a couple of
questions before my colleagues leap in. If we go back to the photographs,
on the one hand you are telling us that this is a serious problem
but, on the other hand, you produced a set of photographs where,
if you look through them, the ratio of dog-walkers to dogs is
under four, with one exception - the person you said was a responsible
dog owner with four dogs himself who has another group on a lead.
If it is such a serious problem, why has there not been serious
evidence of bunching, as I put it, and why have you not been able
to obtain more powerful photographs?
(Mr Stratton) The photographs were taken by
our dog control unit.
531. You have six dog control officers?
(Mr Stratton) We have six dog control officers.
They are not gifted in photography. The first time round they
took a cine film which I thought was quite reasonable, but there
were others who did not. It was quite long, it was about half-an-hour
but there were only about two minutes that were any good. They
are not gifted photographers - amateur or professional. I suppose
if one really wants to do it properly you do it yourself, but
there are other pressing things.
532. The letters are, I think, very powerful
and I think make a very powerful case for areas of concern, but
it does cross my mind that you would be creating quite an empire,
quite a layer of bureaucracy with all of this. Would it not have
been possible to reach agreement on how this should go forward
with all those people, professional dog-walkers?
(Mr Stratton) We tried initially. When it
fell down I wrote to all of them, they really took little or no
notice. There are one or two who are good but there are some who
are not.
533. My last question is a practical one because
I am a dog owner myself - hugely irresponsible dog owner myself,
I say straight away, but I am not in the London borough so I escape
all of this. It seems to me that there is a huge problem. If somebody
said "I want you to dog-walk eight Chihuahuas" and so
on, but if somebody said "I want to dog-walk five Rottweilers"
then it is a completely different kettle of fish. I am interested
in how this figure of five becomes the magic figure. Should there
not be some sort of weight ratio - the weight of the dog-walker
and the weight of the dog? There is a control element there. Five
Rottweilers and you would be into the sunset on the end of a lead.
(Mr Stratton) It was a taxing issue, I confess.
The more so because until she died earlier this year there was
a lady who had ten very small dogs which she walked in Battersea
Park, and did so very responsibly. It was with the guidance of
our dog control officers and our parks police dog handlers that
we came up with a figure. Once you get to four dogs you are then
starting to, probably, lose or you may well start losing control.
Five dogs on a lead, if they are fairly big or medium-sized dogs,
can pull an individual around. One Rottweiler can pull an individual
around. We have not come across people who have got large numbers
of Rottweilers but we have come across people, particularly as
you saw in the photograph, with medium and large dogs, and that
tends to be the norm. It was through their advice that they thought
up to four we can handle, and I think most people should be able
to handle up to four, particularly if they are their own dogs
and if they are professional dog-walkers, if they are good walkers.
Once it gets over four, that is when it starts getting difficult.
It was on their advice that we settled for over four dogs.
534. My last question is that on the photographs
- I am getting old and I cannot see like I used to, and I accept
that the photographs are not of crystal clear clarity - do the
bigger dogs have muzzles?
(Mr Stratton) One or two only will muzzle
their dogs. The person who I mentioned was a responsible dog owner,
when he starts taking his dog out he will always muzzle it and
he will always have it on a lead. That is his style.
535. JIM SHERIDAN: Mr Stratton, dog fouling is
a very serious hazard amongst young children. Can I take you to
the photographs? In your professional capacity, could you identify
anywhere in the photographs where you see any evidence that these
dog-walkers, professional or otherwise, have dog-fouling equipment
to clean up after them with them?
(Mr Stratton) There probably is one. The chap
who has got the cowboy hat on. He will have a satchel over his
shoulder and he collects it in bags and he keeps it in the satchel,
and then he dumps it all. I suspect that most of these will have
bags and carry bags in their pockets. I think all the professional
dog-walkers will have that because they are watched occasionally.
If they foul, particularly when they get out of the car - which
is when most dogs will foul ----
536. Just on the second page of the photographs,
the top left-hand photograph, Mr Mundy seems to draw the conclusion
that this chap, by walking by a dog bin with, what looks to me,
both hands full holding on to the dogs, indicates that he is a
responsible dog-walker. Assuming, of course, that the dogs in
London are not toilet trained, will there be any significance
in walking by a dog bin and how many dog bins are in the park?
(Mr Stratton) All litter bins are places where
you can put dog-fouling. There is no differentiation between dog-fouling
and litter. So any litter bin can be used. We actually - and I
think Battersea Park is probably the only one, there are a couple
elsewhere - in Battersea have put up red bins because it is a
place where we have dog shows, even in conjunction with the Kennel
Club we have dog shows; our parks police have dog shows; our dog
control unit have dog shows and the red bin just stands out better.
I do not think that there is anything interesting about the chap
actually passing a red bin. You cannot go very far in Battersea
Park without passing one, in honesty. Certainly not a litter bin.
537. MR BLUNT: With this clause there is actually
no way to differentiate between applying it to private or professional
dog-walkers.
(Mr Stratton) No, and I can explain the reason
for that. You cannot go up to somebody and ask if they are a professional
dog-walker. It is very hard to prove that somebody is a professional
dog-walker even though we know who they are .
538. Would these requirements apply to the Queen?
Would Her Majesty require a licence?
(Mr Stratton) I am sure Her Majesty would
have to uphold the law of the land. I do not know if that is answering
the question.
539. I presume from the photographs that she
owns four dogs. If she wishes to walk her dogs in London she will
have to apply for a licence, is that right?
(Mr Stratton) Yes.
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