Evidence before the Committee (Questions
620-639)
WEDNESDAY 10 SEPTEMBER 2003
620. Let us try public knowledge.
(Mr Cavill) Occasionally fighting instances
do occur, and when they do occur, sir, they are very often exaggerated
out of all proportion.
621. They can be very disturbing, as a matter
of public understanding.
(Mr Cavill) Yes.
622. They are exacerbated when dogs pack. Do
you agree?
(Mr Cavill) I think that is a generalisation
that I cannot go along with.
623. It is common knowledge and a common judgment
in these things, is it not, when you see a small number of dogs
being involved in a dog fight it gets much more nasty? Does it
not?
(Mr Cavill) I have to question the foundation
on which you are making the statement, because you are making
a number of assumptions which I do not think you have thought
through, if you will forgive me. Firstly, when you are taking
your dogs for a walk, and you might have three, four, five or
six, they are all dogs that know each other and, generally speaking,
when you have got more than one dog they have to be reasonably
well-behaved. They have to be, simply because you could not cope
with them otherwise. If you are a professional dog-walker you
do not give yourself a problem. If you are asked to take a dog
out that you can tell is, or alternatively in practice turns out
to be, unsociable, you do not take it with the others, you leave
it at home. That is what a professional does. A professional looks
at the situation and says "These are the things that I want
to do, these are the things that are suitable" and they do
the things that are safe, by definition.
624. All right. I will leave it to the Committee
to judge whether a dog is a pack animal and is susceptible to
behave in a pack manner if there are more of them. I want to ask
you this: is it desirable if more than four dogs are walked that
they are kept on a lead, as you have just described?
(Mr Cavill) My view is that if anybody who
is taking dogs out in a public place and they are not all of the
same family, so you do not know them, and they are not in an enclosed
place, they should be on leads, certainly.
625. Why?
(Mr Cavill) Because it enables the walker
to exercise the control that is necessary in a public place, and
we would agree with that.
626. Why is control necessary?
(Mr Cavill) In dog training terms we often
say a dog is on an elastic lead. Within your small space, and
within a confined space, generally speaking, a dog will be under
control and do what it is told. There is a point at which the
dog begins to sniff other things, say a bicycle goes past or there
are other distractions, and that elastic snaps. Anybody responsible
- and it looks from the photographs that all these dog-walkers
were responsible (and it is noteworthy that despite the serious
problems that they have they could not find photographs of people
behaving irresponsibly or dogs being out of control) - in that
sort of situation will ensure that the only dogs that are left
off are the ones that they know will stay close to them.
627. What you are saying is that if four dogs
were out of control - that is to say, not on a lead - there is
a potential for antisocial conduct. Do you agree?
(Mr Cavill) There is a potential for one dog
out of control behaving like that. That is why I am saying that
the foundation on which you are building this argument, I am afraid,
is not sound.
628. Could you photograph a pack of dogs that
is taken off a lead and is dispersed round Battersea Park? You
could not, could you?
(Mr Cavill) You take photographs of individual
dogs doing their own thing - sniffing, defecating, lifting their
legs against a tree, going up to people to be petted and patted.
They do not gather together in a pack in the way in which you
are implying.
629. Look at the mischief if they were off the
lead. First there could be concerns with other dogs and dog owners
being defensive if they are off a lead. They could be worried
about it, could they not?
(Mr Cavill) But that happens with one dog.
630. Do you agree?
(Mr Cavill) Well of course.
631. Second, there are concerns with parents
and children, for example, in ball games. If a dog or dogs comes
up out of control there are issues. Are there not?
(Mr Cavill) There are, Mr Clarkson, but they
are irrelevant to what we are talking about.
632. It may be irrelevant as far as you are concerned.
What sanction is there, currently, for example, to keep the dogs
on a lead?
I hope I am right in quoting that the 1911 Act requires
dogs to have a collar, to have a tag and to be kept under control,
so in my view that means on a lead where necessary.
633. It is axiomatic that every multiple dog-walker
will always keep his dogs on a lead under the current legislation.
(Mr Cavill) Not always because the legislation
says "under control". I notice in the photographs that
there is a walker with three or four dogs and they are on leads
and there are two or three other dogs running about. They are
the ones that the dog-walker knows will come when they are called,
do what they are told. They are behaving responsibly and not causing
anybody any trouble. In many ways it is in the interests of the
professional dog-walker to ensure that they do not cause any difficulty.
634. It may be, but it may be that others are
cavalier and there is no regime, is there, that can control them?
(Mr Cavill) Absolutely, neither will this.
635. Did you say a 15 per cent increase in dog
ownership?
(Mr Cavill) 15 per cent decrease in dog ownership
in ten years.
636. I had misheard. There is nonetheless a trend,
is there not, certainly in the last five years or so for professional
dog-walkers to use the resource of London parks, do you agree?
(Mr Cavill) I think that is absolutely true.
I think it is worth making the point that those dogs belong to
residents of the borough by and large, so that resource is being
used in the right way.
637. It is a finite resource, is it not?
(Mr Cavill) Yes.
638. Do you recognise that there is a potential
issue with saturation at a particular time with too many dog-walkers
at a critical moment, particularly if some of them are off the
lead?
(Mr Cavill) There is the potential for that
to happen.
639. Do you also recognise that with every London
park or open space that is at issue that we are discussing every
one has other competing interests?
(Mr Cavill) Of course.
|