Select Committee on Northern Ireland Affairs Minutes of Evidence


Examination of Witnesses (Questions 150 - 159)

THURSDAY 14 NOVEMBER 2002

EDWARD KING AND JOHN BATLEY

Chairman

  150. Good morning, gentlemen. This is the third formal evidence session of our inquiry into the control of firearms in Northern Ireland and the draft Firearms Northern Ireland Order 2002. We are very pleased to see Mr Edward King, Chairman of the Shooting Sports Trust and Mr John Batley, the Director of the Gun Traders' Association with us. In Northern Ireland all classes of firearms are treated as the same for regulatory purposes, that, of course, is different from Great Britain, do you think this is an effective and appropriate way to control firearms in Northern Ireland?
  (Mr King) Edward King, Chairman of the Shooting Sports Trust, currently also Chairman of the Gun Trade Association by rotation.

  151. Sorry to interrupt you there, you are the Chairman.
  (Mr Batley) I am the Director.
  (Mr King) Our opinion as an Association is that while the controls which are currently in place over firearms as a generic term are necessary there are certain areas in which we would certainly recommend that individual firearms might possibly best be grouped into categories of firearms more similarly to the current United Kingdom mainland system. For example, at the top of the tree where you are talking about firearms as we describe them here we are currently looking at individual, serial numbered items with good reason, and so on, but below that there is what we generally term as section two, shotguns. Shotguns we would like to see more as a category rather than as an area for each individual specific item.

  152. Why do you say that, is it simply to bring it into line with Great Britain or do you not think that the special arrangements in Northern Ireland are justified?
  (Mr King) We believe that certainly as far at shotguns are concerned while there is an interest in terms of general clarity in bringing them into line with the rest of Great Britain we believe that shotguns are a different category of firearm to the rest of firearms, namely rifled firearms, and so on, they have a lesser range, they have a lesser, certainly in our experience, propensity for use in unlawful activities and, as such, would merit consideration for inclusion as a category rather than as individual items.

  153. What do you think the effect of that change would be in Northern Ireland?
  (Mr King) I think it would certainly make it possible for those wishing to use shotguns for general sporting use, be it game shooting or clay pigeon shooting, to have and own more than one shotgun perfectly legitimately with no increased threat in terms of danger to the public or to the peace. For instance if somebody is keen to shoot pigeons or pheasants they may wish to have one particular type of calibre of gun, if they wish to shoot clay pigeons of various different disciplines—where we represent the world fairly well in terms of medals at Olympic or Commonwealth standards—there are various tools for the job. It is administratively cumbersome to go down the road of identifying each individual particular piece and justifying good reason for that, as opposed to an individual who has already gone through a number of hoops in order to get to that stage.

Mr McCabe

  154. Just a quick point in response to an answer you gave a moment ago, Mr King, I think you said that as far as you are aware shotguns are not as likely to be used in the commission of crime—I do not think that was the exact term you used but that was the implication. Are you not aware of any situation where shotguns are used in armed robberies?
  (Mr King) I would not deny that shotguns are not used in armed robberies, they are used in armed robberies.
  (Mr Batley) May I add to that, the evidence that we have from the Home Office is that the use of shotguns in armed crimes of all sorts is declining from the use of legally held shotguns, ex legally held and illegally held.

  155. When you say evidence from the Home Office is declining can you tell me from what to where?
  (Mr Batley) I have figures here that I am happy to leave with you, if I may.

Reverend Smyth

  156. Turning from shotguns to airguns, which I know is causing some problems in different places, since I have had letters in part of my own constituency about them. I understand that the government has now indicated that it is intending to deregulate in Northern Ireland those air weapons with a muzzle capacity energy of less than one joule. Is this a help?
  (Mr King) I would answer that by saying that from our position it is an anomaly. Under United Kingdom mainland legislation if it discharges a muzzle energy of less than one joule it is no longer a firearm. It does not make sense to say you are not calling things which are not firearms not firearms any more. Have I answered the question in a clear way.

  157. It puzzled you. Yes, you have answered that quite well. Can I therefore draw your attention to paragraph 29 of your evidence when you say that the use of airguns in informal target practice on private property provides an essential training to young people. Can you explain what you mean by essential in this context?
  (Mr King) In our opinion airguns and the use of airguns is an introduction to sporting shooting. The reason we call it essential is that the airgun itself is as a gun used for sport significantly less dangerous than the shotgun or the full blown firearm as we know it. In the situations that we envisage youngsters are introduced to airguns by a responsible adult and they are used to teach the youngster how it is that one handles a gun in general, the same rules which are followed throughout a sporting shooter's life in the handling of any kind of firearm are generally ingrained in that person when they are a youngster and the fact that it is an airgun does not detract from the fact it is a gun and potentially dangerous and has to be treated and used with respect to the item itself and other people and safety. That is why we say it is essential because it is a safe or a relatively safe way of bringing youngsters into contact with guns in a controlled environment.

  Reverend Smyth: Thank you.

Mr Robinson

  158. Mr King, have you ever used an air weapon of less than one joule?
  (Mr King) The answer is if I use an air weapon it is generally in the standard of what we call low powered airgun category.

  159. Do they exist?
  (Mr King) It is difficult because you are calling it an air weapon. There are items which exist which produce less than one joule which are variously referred to as airguns, soft air, BB, and so on, which are firing little polystyrene balls, and so on, which some people refer to as air weapons. I try not to describe those as weapons or guns because they are not classified as firearms under the Firearms Act because it is accepted that below one joule they are not firearms.


 
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