Examination of Witnesses (Questions 150
- 159)
THURSDAY 14 NOVEMBER 2002
EDWARD KING
AND JOHN
BATLEY
Chairman
150. Good morning, gentlemen. This is the third
formal evidence session of our inquiry into the control of firearms
in Northern Ireland and the draft Firearms Northern Ireland Order
2002. We are very pleased to see Mr Edward King, Chairman of the
Shooting Sports Trust and Mr John Batley, the Director of the
Gun Traders' Association with us. In Northern Ireland all classes
of firearms are treated as the same for regulatory purposes, that,
of course, is different from Great Britain, do you think this
is an effective and appropriate way to control firearms in Northern
Ireland?
(Mr King) Edward King, Chairman of the Shooting Sports
Trust, currently also Chairman of the Gun Trade Association by
rotation.
151. Sorry to interrupt you there, you are the
Chairman.
(Mr Batley) I am the Director.
(Mr King) Our opinion as an Association is that while
the controls which are currently in place over firearms as a generic
term are necessary there are certain areas in which we would certainly
recommend that individual firearms might possibly best be grouped
into categories of firearms more similarly to the current United
Kingdom mainland system. For example, at the top of the tree where
you are talking about firearms as we describe them here we are
currently looking at individual, serial numbered items with good
reason, and so on, but below that there is what we generally term
as section two, shotguns. Shotguns we would like to see more as
a category rather than as an area for each individual specific
item.
152. Why do you say that, is it simply to bring
it into line with Great Britain or do you not think that the special
arrangements in Northern Ireland are justified?
(Mr King) We believe that certainly as far at shotguns
are concerned while there is an interest in terms of general clarity
in bringing them into line with the rest of Great Britain we believe
that shotguns are a different category of firearm to the rest
of firearms, namely rifled firearms, and so on, they have a lesser
range, they have a lesser, certainly in our experience, propensity
for use in unlawful activities and, as such, would merit consideration
for inclusion as a category rather than as individual items.
153. What do you think the effect of that change
would be in Northern Ireland?
(Mr King) I think it would certainly make it possible
for those wishing to use shotguns for general sporting use, be
it game shooting or clay pigeon shooting, to have and own more
than one shotgun perfectly legitimately with no increased threat
in terms of danger to the public or to the peace. For instance
if somebody is keen to shoot pigeons or pheasants they may wish
to have one particular type of calibre of gun, if they wish to
shoot clay pigeons of various different disciplines—where
we represent the world fairly well in terms of medals at Olympic
or Commonwealth standards—there are various tools for the
job. It is administratively cumbersome to go down the road of
identifying each individual particular piece and justifying good
reason for that, as opposed to an individual who has already gone
through a number of hoops in order to get to that stage.
Mr McCabe
154. Just a quick point in response to an answer
you gave a moment ago, Mr King, I think you said that as far as
you are aware shotguns are not as likely to be used in the commission
of crime—I do not think that was the exact term you used
but that was the implication. Are you not aware of any situation
where shotguns are used in armed robberies?
(Mr King) I would not deny that shotguns are not used
in armed robberies, they are used in armed robberies.
(Mr Batley) May I add to that, the evidence that we
have from the Home Office is that the use of shotguns in armed
crimes of all sorts is declining from the use of legally held
shotguns, ex legally held and illegally held.
155. When you say evidence from the Home Office
is declining can you tell me from what to where?
(Mr Batley) I have figures here that I am happy to
leave with you, if I may.
Reverend Smyth
156. Turning from shotguns to airguns, which
I know is causing some problems in different places, since I have
had letters in part of my own constituency about them. I understand
that the government has now indicated that it is intending to
deregulate in Northern Ireland those air weapons with a muzzle
capacity energy of less than one joule. Is this a help?
(Mr King) I would answer that by saying that from
our position it is an anomaly. Under United Kingdom mainland legislation
if it discharges a muzzle energy of less than one joule it is
no longer a firearm. It does not make sense to say you are not
calling things which are not firearms not firearms any more. Have
I answered the question in a clear way.
157. It puzzled you. Yes, you have answered
that quite well. Can I therefore draw your attention to paragraph
29 of your evidence when you say that the use of airguns in informal
target practice on private property provides an essential training
to young people. Can you explain what you mean by essential in
this context?
(Mr King) In our opinion airguns and the use of airguns
is an introduction to sporting shooting. The reason we call it
essential is that the airgun itself is as a gun used for sport
significantly less dangerous than the shotgun or the full blown
firearm as we know it. In the situations that we envisage youngsters
are introduced to airguns by a responsible adult and they are
used to teach the youngster how it is that one handles a gun in
general, the same rules which are followed throughout a sporting
shooter's life in the handling of any kind of firearm are generally
ingrained in that person when they are a youngster and the fact
that it is an airgun does not detract from the fact it is a gun
and potentially dangerous and has to be treated and used with
respect to the item itself and other people and safety. That is
why we say it is essential because it is a safe or a relatively
safe way of bringing youngsters into contact with guns in a controlled
environment.
Reverend Smyth: Thank you.
Mr Robinson
158. Mr King, have you ever used an air weapon
of less than one joule?
(Mr King) The answer is if I use an air weapon it
is generally in the standard of what we call low powered airgun
category.
159. Do they exist?
(Mr King) It is difficult because you are calling
it an air weapon. There are items which exist which produce less
than one joule which are variously referred to as airguns, soft
air, BB, and so on, which are firing little polystyrene balls,
and so on, which some people refer to as air weapons. I try not
to describe those as weapons or guns because they are not classified
as firearms under the Firearms Act because it is accepted that
below one joule they are not firearms.
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