Examination of Witnesses (Questions 220
- 228)
THURSDAY 14 NOVEMBER 2002
MR W G DOE
AND MR
DOUGIE GLAISTER
220. Can I come back to you on that one. How
far have those statistics not been kept because policing has not
been followed through? The penalties apply but were they ever
fully paid up and so on or were they just ignored because there
were no penalties and, therefore, policing did not take into consideration
many of the complaints? One is aware of the problems at that level
in my own constituency.
(Mr Doe) I cannot answer that. You must ask the police
that question.
221. But you were using it as a defence on your
statistics and most of us have discovered statistics can be massaged
to suit different people.
(Mr Doe) Agreed but one can only go on the evidence
in front of us. You must take that matter up with the police.
I would make the point that on misuse, certainly we do support,
which is what has been supported by the police already and inquiries
in the past, that education is the way forward together with a
tough regime in the courts for those who do misuse. Depending
on the type of misuse, to have a loaded firearm in a public place
can be 14 years in jail. When was the last time somebody implemented
that? It needs a message to go out to people that a loaded air
gun is no different from a loaded machine gun or loaded rifle
or loaded shotgun in a public place.
Chairman
222. You call for shotguns to be subject to
a different, reduced certification procedure as they are in Great
Britain. Do you see any downside to that in terms of public safety
in a more relaxed regime in Northern Ireland? This question refers
only to Northern Ireland.
(Mr Doe) Indeed, yes. Can I respond to that and say
I think the GTA have covered our concerns adequately in that respect.
As I explained, we are the national governing body for small-bore
shooting, one or two of our members hold shotguns also and in
that respect we support the GTA line.
Mr Barnes
223. I refer to your memorandum which is very
succinct, commendably so, and point seven where you seek "...
a simplification of dealings between Northern Ireland and the
UK mainland, especially for visitors who are competing in organised
events". What are the problems you are experiencing currently?
(Mr Doe) There are two problems depending on the type
of firearm being used. Taking, for example, an air rifle or air
pistol, you will be aware that in this country most of them, certainly
below Section 1 certification, are not certificated at all. Therefore
we recognise that in Northern Ireland there is a need for certification
and an authority for the owner/possessor to have permission to
go into the country. What concerns us more though is that a Northern
Ireland firearms certificate is recognised on the UK mainland.
You do not have to apply for a visitor's permit on the UK mainland.
If you are going from the UK to Northern Ireland you have to make
an application for an approval certificate, quite frankly it is
a visitors permit in another name. We believe there should be
a reciprocal arrangement and recognition that my certificate is
good enough to go and compete in Northern Ireland without further
hurdles to overcome.
224. There are two ways round sorting that out,
either that the regulations are the same in Northern Ireland and
Great Britain and either that you require separate certification
or one acts in relation to the other. Your position is general.
(Mr Doe) The UK one should be recognised in Northern
Ireland. It is recognised in Scotland and Wales.
225. You started by talking about air pistols
and the distinction between non certification and certification,
how do you square that one?
(Mr Doe) All the time that Northern Ireland choose
to certificate an air rifle or air pistol of over one joule we
recognise that a person who is in possession of such a firearm
in Northern Ireland needs to have a piece of paper so that when
stopped can justify their possession. We would very much like
to see the 12 ft/lbs, 6 ft/lbs introduced.
(Mr Glaister) On the lines of the air gun, there are
a number of countries that if you are going abroad target shooting
and taking an air gun, the law of that country says that an air
gun is certificated, therefore you must declare you are taking
the appropriate paperwork. The same applies at present to Northern
Ireland, the same applies to the Channel Islands. As my colleague
here says if we accept totally over here that someone from Northern
Ireland who comes with a certificate has had inquiries made into
him as a person and he is suitably certified or he is regarded
by the Chief Officer of Police in Northern Ireland as suitable
to have a firearm, surely a reciprocal agreement must apply the
other way. The inquiries that are made in mainland England these
days to get a certificate I am sure are just as rigorous if not
more so than some in Northern Ireland.
226. Might the standards not be higher and more
rigorous in Northern Ireland in that there is a history of problems
associated with violence in the community which spills over into
the use of guns and therefore a smaller community might be possible
to operate a tougher regime?
(Mr Doe) I would hope not given the current legislation
on the UK mainland.
Chairman
227. You are calling for the Northern Ireland
Office to issue guidance similar to that which the Home Office
has issued. Are there any areas of the draft order which you think
would benefit particularly from the development of guidance?
(Mr Doe) Given that the Firearms Act in itself is
quite a complicated piece of legislation, I think any guidance
that is issued which is a public document benefits both the shooter
and the police. The shooter will know what is required, what he
has to achieve; the police, recognising that there will be various
officers handling and interpreting the legislation, a single document
which gives guidance and direction across all who have to implement
the act can only be of benefit so it is evenly handled within
the country and because I live in the east a different view by
an official in the east is not taken from somebody who lives in
the west of Northern Ireland.
228. But there is no specific paragraph or area
of the draft Order that you think needs it more than others?
(Mr Doe) I see that some of the paragraphs in the
Northern Ireland Order, in particular paragraph seven which is
extremely difficult to understand, could be rewritten far better.
I believe that it is lacking in that a person over 16 can purchase
a .22 rifle if he is on a farm, the son of a farmer, shoot it
on that land unsupervised, but a person of the same age cannot
purchase a .22 rifle for use in his approved club under supervision.
That seems anomalous.
Chairman: Mr Doe and Mr Glaister, thank you
very much indeed for your evidence. We will see the fruits of
our labours and yours in due course. Thank you very much.
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