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Yvette Cooper: Just to clarify that point for the hon. Gentleman, we certainly expect to have extensive discussions on the financial aspects. They have not been discussed in any detail with the Government of Gibraltar at this stage. Considerable discussions need to take place on money issues.
Mr. Cash: I am extremely glad to hear that. I do not want to try to trip the Minister up, but, as she was putting the arguments to the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome, she referred to discussions. I know that discussions in general have been taking place, but the key question in relation to the amendment relates to the financial questions—the Consolidated Fund of Gibraltar and so on. However, we have been through all that.
I conclude by saying that I am prepared to withdraw the amendment, with the strongest reservation that constitutional issues are involved. I have been given an indication by the Minister that these matters have been under discussion. Even if we were to press the amendment to a Division, we would not win in the Committee, but there are issues that we may need to return to and, I sense, will return to on Report. With those strong reservations, I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill
Mr. Cash: On a point of order, Mr. Cook. I want to be clear. The note on the selection list indicates that we have already had a stand part debate on clause 23. In other words, there is no need for discussion because we have had it already.
The Chairman: I assure the hon. Gentleman that we discussed it ad nauseam.
Mr. Cash: I hope not.
Clauses 23 and 24 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Column Number: 157
Clause 25
Short title, extent and commencement
Mr. Cash: I beg to move amendment No.69, in
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss amendment No.70, in
Mr. Cash: The amendments deal with the day on which the Bill will come into effect. Amendment No. 69 would delete the words after
''the passing of this Act''
in subsection 3 and insert:
''and shall come into force in Gibraltar on such day as the Secretary of State''—
we have come to accept that in this context it will again be the Lord Chancellor—
''following consultation with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar, may appoint by order made by statutory instrument.''
That would reverse the manner in which the commencement operates at present, because the Bill says that part 1, sections 8 and 9 and part 3 shall
''come into force in each part of the United Kingdom on the passing of this Act but shall not come into force in Gibraltar until such day as the Lord Chancellor may appoint by . . . statutory instrument.''
It seems extraordinary that the Bill does not provide for consultation with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar about the date on which commencement in respect of Gibraltar would take place. Furthermore, it seems more appropriate that the wording should be in the positive and say that the Bill will come into force following that consultation on the day appointed by order made by statutory instrument.
Clause 25(4) states:
''Sections 10 to 21 shall not come into force . . . until such day as the Lord Chancellor may appoint by order made by statutory instrument.''
Amendment No. 70 would reverse that language by stating that those sections
''shall come into force on such day as''
the Lord Chancellor,
''following consultation with the Chief Minister of Gibraltar,''—
for very several sensible reasons—
''may appoint by order made by statutory instrument.''
As I have frequently said, the difficulties with the Bill tend to gravitate around the absence of proper consultation with the Chief Minister of the Government of Gibraltar. That probably reflects a deeper malaise with respect to this Government's attitude towards the Bill, about which they were not enthusiastic and into which they have been pushed. The difficulties depend on our relationship with Spain, and the Government are inherently reluctant to be
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positive about the consultative process, which is a reprehensible, unnecessary and avoidable attitude.
Yvette Cooper: Various parts of the Bill will come into force at different times. Clauses 8 and 9 will need to be in force on Royal Assent to allow the Electoral Commission to begin its consideration of which region Gibraltar should form a part. Other parts of the Bill will be commenced early, within two months of Royal Assent, to allow progress to be made on preparing secondary legislation. The timetable is tight and complicated, and it would be extremely unusual to make the use of the commencement order subject to consultation. Given the circumstances, consultation would be an unwarranted step, which would affect the timetable. If we miss the timetable, we will run the risk of not being ready for the 2004 elections.
I do not disagree with the amendment's principle. It is clearly right that we should work with the Government of Gibraltar on both the content and the timing of secondary legislation. Indeed, we will have to do so given that we are keen that some of the follow-on legislation should be enacted in Gibraltar. We need to ensure that, particularly where secondary legislation in this place and further legislation in Gibraltar need to be aligned, the timing is taken very seriously, and we will have to take the Government of Gibraltar's position on the commencement of the provisions into account.
As we are drawing to the end of the consideration of the issues in Committee, I want to make it clear that the Government are keen to look at what more might be done to clarify on the face of the Bill what role Gibraltar can play in passing further secondary legislation. I should caution the Committee that it is not clear how rapidly we will be able to do that, and, although I will be able to report on the matter on Report, it is not clear how long it will take, whether further amendments will need to be drawn up and how far we will have got. Although we will clearly be acting as speedily as possible in order to ensure full consultation with the Government of Gibraltar, the process may take a little more time.
10.30 am
The hon. Member for Stone and, on occasion, the hon. Member for Somerton and Frome have taken great delight wherever possible in trying to minimise the amount of consultation that has taken place, and have created all sorts of colonial references, which is a little rich coming from the hon. Member for Stone.
We should be clear. A series of discussions has taken place with the Government of Gibraltar. It is an unusual situation that we are in—it does not apply to many other areas—in order to ensure that the people of Gibraltar are enfranchised in the European parliamentary elections. The purpose of the Bill is to ensure that the people of Gibraltar should get a democratic vote in the European parliamentary elections. That is why the Bill is so important, and where possible it should draw support from both sides of the House of Commons.
Mr. Cash: Again, I find some contradiction in what the Minister says. She says that to make my suggested changes, which amount to saying that there should be
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consultation with the Chief Minister, would be unwarranted. She then says that she agrees with consultation in principle. We are all experienced at legislating in this Parliament. It does not take much to acknowledge that if there is a reason for doing something and it does not contradict the general tenor of the Bill, it would be convenient to do it. We are not asking for some monumental constitutional change. We are just saying that it is advisable and necessary to ensure that the words ''in consultation with the Chief Minister'' are included in the Bill.
It defies belief that for some arcane reason that has not been explained—other than for the Minister to say that she agrees in principle with consultation—the measure cannot be included. She makes a slighting reference to my question about the colonial attitude that lies behind so much of the Bill. Nothing could be more colonial than to say that the Government are not prepared to include a provision to consult the Chief Minister on the date of commencement.
We have discussed what consultation means. The Minister agreed with the parameters of consultation that I have proposed—that is that we should have due regard to the views of the person, and give reasons. That is not an exceptional proposition; it is rather fundamental. It demonstrates why there has been such an enormous, valid disagreement with those in Gibraltar, including the Chief Minister, who has acted with integrity, honour and distinction throughout the saga of the Brussels process during an extended period. It is clear that a less colonial and imperialistic approach to the issue would have reduced the amount of difficulty that has arisen in the higher echelons of the diplomatic affairs of Britain, Spain and Gibraltar, and the European Union for that matter.
I was rather amused to hear the Minister to say that it was a bit rich for me to go on about colonialism, given my interest in matters related to Africa, which I know that you share, Mr. Cook. I have chaired various all-party committees for many years, which shows my concern that we should move away from colonialism and be much more responsive to the wishes of the indigenous peoples of particular territories.
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