| Sexual Offences Bill [Lords]
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Mr. Chris Bryant (Rhondda): I am sympathetic to my hon. Friend's argument. When I did my own research and was presented with those statistics, I tried to ascertain what precisely is meant by ''first sexual experience''. A young person's first experience of heavy petting may be at 11 or 12, and that is not normally recorded in the statistics. Perhaps my hon. Friend has better information than I do. Julie Morgan: I thank my hon. Friend for that intervention, because those are the same queries as I had. What is meant by the term? Mr. Malins: When the hon. Lady was talking, I was struck by the early age at which young people have their first sexual experience. We are legislating for the future. Young people nowadays reach puberty younger than they did in the past, and that trend may continue, so the hon. Lady is talking about an Column Number: 100 interesting area. There could be more problems as the years go by and people reach puberty at an even younger age.Julie Morgan: The hon. Gentleman makes an important point, because young people are developing far earlier and having experiences that in the past would have been reserved to a much older age group. We must take into account what is actually happening. One statistic of which I am sure we are all aware is that a third of all men and a quarter of all women say that they had sex before they were 16. That is the climate in which we are discussing these issues, and it is important to take all those facts into account when we consider the legislation. However much we wish that such activities did not take place at such a young age, that is what happens and we must try to get into the Bill a provision that deals with consensual activities between young people. If 13 is the average age at which boys first take part in sexual activity, I do not think that I can go along with the views of the hon. Member for Romsey that what we are discussing is always an offence if it involves someone under 13. Mr. Dawson: I am extremely sympathetic to and accept almost entirely my hon. Friend's arguments about young people aged over 13, but is there not an important point about what clauses 6 to 8 are designed to achieve? They draw a clear distinction between children under 13 and children over 13. Is that not a vital protective element of the Bill? Julie Morgan: It is important to distinguish between younger children and older children, but it is obvious that at the age of 13 many young people have had sexual experiences. To say that any sort of experience involving a young person under 13 constitutes criminal activity is a dangerous move. Mr. Grieve: I am interested in the debate on these clauses and I do not want to stray too far from it, but the irony is that, apart from the penalties, there is no distinction between children under 13 and children under 16. All their activities are criminalised in exactly the same way, which is one of the most interesting aspects of the Bill. Julie Morgan: That is a valid point. The Government have said that they will issue guidelines to the CPS and will ensure that unnecessary prosecutions do not take place. However, I wonder whether that is the right way to go about making law. It would be much better if we had something in the Bill to ensure that normal teenage activity is not criminalised. I hope that my hon. Friend the Minister can respond in some way that deals with these issues, because we must go on to discuss how we deal with young people who commit sexual offences and situations in which there is no consent. Those are the young people whom we need to identify and help.
9.45 amMr. John Randall (Uxbridge): As I was listening to the Minister on the ''Today'' programme—he sounded very reasonable-—one thing occurred to me, which follows on from what the hon. Member for Cardiff, North (Julie Morgan) said. If what we are discussing is Column Number: 101 a criminal offence, although the guidelines will have been published and we have had assurances that it will not be taken further, is there not a danger that some youngsters will not know that the guidelines exist? The myth will then go round the schools that these activities are criminal, and young people who engage in them will think that they are in danger of the police coming around and carting them off. I wonder whether that might defeat the object, and make the issue more undercover than we intend.The Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for the Home Department (Paul Goggins): We have already had an indication of the sort of debate that we will have in Committee today. I thank the hon. Member for Woking for his kind remarks at the start of the debate—it is indeed my first time on a Standing Committee, and it is an interesting and challenging one to be part of. I hope that I am able to maintain the constructive atmosphere that prevailed in the Committee on Tuesday. The hon. Gentleman reminded the Committee at the outset that, as we tease out the issues, what unites us is greater than that which may divide us. He said that sexual assault on children, particularly very young children, was ''abhorrent''. That is our starting point, and that unites us far more than it divides us. The hon. Gentleman also made the point, which has been repeated by other hon. Members on both sides, that we will discuss a wide range of issues this morning. I will respond to some of those issues now, particularly those that relate to the current group of amendments. However, it has become clear that many other issues are involved. I will deal with the issue about consensual—what some might call harmless—sexual activity between under-16s later on, when we discuss other amendments. However, I reassure my hon. Friend the Member for Cardiff, North and other members of the Committee that the aim of the clauses under discussion is not to criminalise ordinary developmental, fairly harmless behaviour by children. None the less, we have a duty to make the legislation robust. Amendments Nos. 133 to 136 would require the activities covered by the offences in clauses 6 to 9 to have been carried out
It is important that the Government and Parliament send out a clear signal through the legislation that Column Number: 102 although 16 is the age of consent, we have strong views about any sort of sexual activity involving, or sexual assault on, a child under 13. We believe that that is a significant difference. If the amendments were accepted, the legislation would fall far short of the Government's commitment to enhance protection for children.Let me outline the rationale that led us to define the range of child sex offences dealt with in this group of clauses. Our priority is to maximise the protection offered by the law for very young children. We want to make it clear in statute that sexual activity involving a child under the age of 13 will not be tolerated, so we adopted the policy that a child below the age of 13 is not capable of giving legally significant consent. I am grateful for the support of my hon. Friends and the hon. Member for Romsey on the issue. The hon. Lady referred to the presentation by the Metropolitan police that members of the Committee attended yesterday; unfortunately I was elsewhere and could not be present, but I had a similar presentation from the same unit of the Metropolitan police on Monday, so I am aware of the information that they shared. As we heard, it is important that our deliberations are rooted in the reality that they have to deal with. We chose the benchmark age of 13 as it reflects the provisions of existing sexual offences legislation, whereby cases involving victims below that age trigger higher maximum sentences than those in which the victims are aged 13 or over, but under 16. We have already debated the age at which people mature and whether that age is rising, falling or staying the same. We have drawn the conclusion that as 13 is the age at which children enter their teenage years and which is recognised by society as marking a significant step towards maturity, it seems appropriate for 13 to be the age threshold below which any ostensible consent to sexual activity should not be deemed to be legally significant. Regardless of whether a child under the age of 13 may have the necessary understanding of sexual matters to give ostensible consent to sexual activity, we firmly believe that the law has a duty to protect all children from engaging in sexual activity at such an early age. We are also anxious to ensure that children below that age should not have to endure detailed questioning either about their sexual understanding or about whether they gave consent to sexual activity on the specific occasion in question. The effect of the amendments would be that the under-13 child offences would apply only when the sexual activity was forced upon the child. It would follow from that that in some circumstances children under 13 could be deemed capable of consenting to such sexual activity; that is completely at odds with our position. If the amendments were accepted, there would be nothing to distinguish between offences involving children under 13 as being particularly serious or deviant behaviour and it is important that the Committee, and Parliament, send the message that we do regard that as serious and deviant behaviour. In addition, in connection with proving that an assault has taken place, children under 13 would have to face cross-examination in relation to consent in court, Column Number: 103 which is something that we have expressly sought to avoid. Young children should not be put through that experience.The central point made by the hon. Member for Beaconsfield was about maximum penalties. Without making any commitments or promises, I am happy to reflect on the matter in the light of his comments. In my view, the amendments would totally undermine our policy and weaken protection for vulnerable children under 13. For the reasons I have given, I hope that the hon. Member for Woking will withdraw the amendment.
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