| Sexual Offences Bill [Lords]
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Mrs. Brooke: I am concerned about the direction of the Minister's argument. This is a difficult question, but is it right to have simpler legislation that leaves society with quite a few problems? The Minister is saying that we cannot do what the amendment says because it is so difficult, but that is not a good reason for not trying to do it or for not doing more work and putting more emphasis on it. We are losing sight of the fact that the problem must be dealt with. It is not enough to say that it is too difficult. I wonder whether the Minister shares the concerns of the Joint Committee on Human Rights about liabilities being imposed on children. Paul Goggins: I assure the hon. Lady that the fact that we have not arrived at a solution is not for want of trying—I am sure that she did not mean it in that way—nor for the want of hard work by officials, representatives of voluntary organisations and others. However, we must draw legislation as tightly as we can. We discussed earlier the complexities arising from the question of whether an act is sexual. Legislation must be drawn as tightly as possible, but we must take account of the fact that, in circumstances like these where we want to make some clearly defined exceptions, it might make it complicated to implement. However, in no sense are we saying that we cannot be bothered to try a bit harder to find a solution. We have tried very hard to find a solution, but our conclusion is that such a solution is not available. Sir Paul Beresford: I support the Minister. We need to remember why we are here; that is why, on Second Reading, I suggested yesterday's teach-in. I quote a well-known barrister who was part of the team defending Rose West and has defended many other paedophiles, words that are supported by my hon. Friend the Member for Beaconsfield, which is that defendants, particularly in this area, are the most devious, slippery and unpleasant people to deal with. Indeed, the barrister said that she felt that they made some of the biggest fraudsters look straight. We have to remember that when legislating, and perhaps rely on guidance. Column Number: 122 Paul Goggins: I am grateful for the hon. Gentleman's support, and for suggesting the police demonstration, which has informed our discussions. He has an admirable track record in this area, and the Committee will benefit enormously from it. I am grateful for his support. The police have made it clear to us, not least in this week's presentation, that they are far too busy trying to catch real criminals to keep diving behind the bike sheds to see whether people are behaving. In the real world of policing, that would not be a priority. We come to the question of guidance, mentioned by my hon. Friend the Member for Walthamstow, but I shall deal first with the questions raised by the hon. Member for Bromsgrove about the incident in her constituency. I can understand the distress and the added complexity of the race issues in that case. I underline what I have said before; we need to reflect on the fact that the voluntary and statutory agencies can intervene in such situations. They need to be as sympathetic as possible and to put those incidents in perspective. If they are truly innocent, we can help with a little education, but if they are serious the intervention must be all the more serious. That has to be developed locally, but there are good examples of such support being provided by schools and elsewhere. Finally on the matter of guidance, I offer the Committee the assurance that the guidance will be published. Clearly, as normal, it will not be published until the Bill is enacted. However, we are not acting entirely in a vacuum. Guidance already operates in relation to the sort of relatively innocent behaviour that has been mentioned today that will lead to no prosecution. The guidance says that various things should be considered, including the age and emotional maturity of the defendant, whether the sexual relationship was entered into willingly, the relationship of the parties, whether there was a breach of care or trust, whether there was an element of seduction and whether the victim encouraged the defendant. That guidance will help the prosecution to arrive at a decision as to whether it is in the public interest to bring a prosecution, and the complexity of a particular incident or relationship will always be taken into account. Mr. Gerrard: If that guidance is in the public domain, will the Minister circulate it to members of the Committee? Paul Goggins: I am reliably informed that it is available on the internet. Mr. Gerrard: Could we be told where? Paul Goggins: I will ensure that members of the Committee are fully informed about how to obtain that guidance. It is important that we recognise that guidance is not something that Ministers are promising from above. There is guidance already in operation that will be developed in the light of the Bill. Vera Baird: My hon. Friend makes a strong point by exemplifying what the guidance currently contains. Is not a major problem with the amendment, which I was minded at one time to put to the vote, that if all the filtration processes failed, the issue of whether a 12-year-old consented would have to come before a Column Number: 123 court? One can then envisage the horrible picture of some barrister cross-examining a 12-year-old and telling her, ''You really liked it, didn't you.'' That is too awful to contemplate and it is a major problem with the amendment.
11.15 amPaul Goggins: I thank my hon. and learned Friend. She underlines the importance of the arguments we advanced earlier about not wanting children under 13 to be put in a position where they are cross-examined in that way. That is why we have taken the view that we have. Finally, I confirm that the current guidance is available on the Crown Prosecution Service website. Sandra Gidley: I accept fully what the Minister says. I must also reluctantly accept that the amendment is not perfect, but I still believe that it will probably present fewer problems than we currently have. We have been told that a large proportion of assaults on children are made by other children. Our amendment introduces the necessity for consent. I do not think there is reduced protection here either. That is important. It is also important to note that we seek to amend only this clause in a whole range of clauses that deal with under-13s. The overriding factor is the protection of the under-13s. The lead amendment in the group does not affect the age of consent. The amendments that start getting into age differences sometimes have that effect even though they do not do so on the statute book. Some people are unhappy with those types of amendments because they think of it as weakening the age of consent. I can understand those arguments but I contend that amendment No. 173 does not do so in the same way. The clause involves only sexual touching. I am still concerned that there will be occasions on which consensual behaviour between 11-year-olds, which is not really that sexual but is more a doctors and nurses type of situation, will be problematic. I would hope to be reassured by the fact that the police are too busy to go around finding out what goes on behind the bike sheds or elsewhere. Will the Minister tell us how many under-13s have been investigated and then brought before the courts? If we could see that the numbers were low and it was not currently a problem, we might be minded to be a little more relaxed about the issue. Finally, I was disappointed to hear the Minister say in response to a question from the hon. Member for Walthamstow that the guidance will not be published before the Bill is enacted. My understanding has been that the Bill would deal with different circumstances. I may not have been fully awake this morning, but I thought I heard him say that in these unusual circumstances the Government would publish the guidance before the Bill was enacted. Can the Minister clarify that? Certainly I would be happier if we had a greater idea about what we may be dealing with before Report and Third Reading. As there is little support for the amendments I shall not take the Committee's time by pressing them to a Division. However, if, at a later stage, the Minister Column Number: 124 could provide some reassurance about the publication of the guidelines it may help to make everyone happier about the Bill's consequences and divert some public attention from this small matter.Paul Goggins: I cannot give the hon. Lady the figures that she requested now but every effort will be made to ensure that all members of the Committee have them as soon as possible. Guidance arising from a Bill when it is enacted cannot, by definition, be issued until the Bill becomes law. The process makes it impossible to produce the guidance before then. I intend to ensure that the guidance is widely known and understood, not merely by reference to the Crown Prosecution Service website but more generally. Organisations that work with children, and Members of Parliament, will know precisely what it is. The guidance will reflect my arguments that, as now, there will be no prosecutions where low-level, developmental, growing-up activities are involved. I have tried to show through the existing guidance that that is a serious promise. Although I could not give the hon. Lady precise answers, I hope that she will ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Sandra Gidley: I thank the Minister for his reply. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment. Amendment, by leave, withdrawn. Clause 8 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
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