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Mr. Grieve: There is a point that I was going to make on clause stand part, but it can be more neatly addressed here. What is the position in relation to a foreign caution? Does the foreign caution have to comply with an English caution, in that it requires an admission by the person that he has committed the offence, or would it be possible for a person to be placed on the register after having received a foreign caution, which may be no more than a warning by the police in a foreign country against a particular type of alleged behaviour?
Paul Goggins: I am not an expert on the nature of cautions in the different judicial systems that operate throughout the world. Cautions may be different. I simply emphasise to the hon. Gentleman that it is not the caution but the offence that is of the greatest importance.
Mr. Grieve: That is not right. Clause 95(2) says:
''The first condition is that under the law in force in a country outside the United Kingdom . . . he has been cautioned in respect of a relevant offence.''
I know how a caution works in England and Wales, but I have a concern, which I can develop during the clause stand part debate, that it is possible for someone to be cautioned abroad for an offence without admitting to committing it.
Paul Goggins: I will have to get back to the hon. Gentleman on the operation of cautions in other jurisdictions. They may operate differently, and if that is so, I will be happy to confirm that.
Column Number: 358
I conclude my contribution and hope that the hon. Member for Mid-Dorset and North Poole will withdraw her amendment.
Mrs. Brooke: I will withdraw my amendment, although some useful points have been raised. My concern was about the differences between different judicial systems, and I thank the Minister for his response. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Mr. Grieve: At the risk of re-opening the issue, I believe that a few further points need to be made having heard the Minister's response.
We may have anxieties about a system in which foreign convictions lead automatically to registration, as we may be concerned about the standard and burden of proof and the conduct of proceedings in those jurisdictions. On balance, I can see the force of having such registration, but I have serious reservations about the use of the word ''caution''. That word has a precise meaning in our legal and criminal terminology, but I believe that in many foreign countries, cautions or warnings are given by the police without requiring any admission of culpability by the recipient.
Clause 95 provides that cautions can immediately lead to notification and registration, which will lead to huge problems. Apart from anything else, a case would surely be brought immediately under the Human Rights Act 1998. Therefore, amplifying my remarks in my earlier intervention, I urge the Minister to give careful thought to the point. It must be made clear that the term ''caution'' in this context is defined as we would understand it in the United Kingdom, not as it might be understood in a foreign jurisdiction.
The Chairman: Order. I gently rebuked the hon. and learned Member for Redcar for reopening a debate, and I am afraid that I will have to do the same again to the hon. Member for Beaconsfield. Either we play by the rules or we do not. As a Chairman, I try to build flexibility into our discussions, but that must be on the understanding that we do not repeat debates. I will allow the Minister to reply, but I ask hon. Members not to reopen debates, as it merely prolongs proceedings and prevents us from debating other issues.
Paul Goggins: Your flexibility, Mr. Gale, not only this morning but throughout this Committee's deliberations, is greatly appreciated.
I do not know whether the hon. Member for Beaconsfield asked his question out of knowledge or speculation. Given his background and usual approach, I suspect that it is out of some knowledge. As I have already promised, I will examine the matter and get back to him on it.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 95 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 96 to 102 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Column Number: 359
Schedule 4
Other offences for purposes of Part 2
Paul Goggins: I beg to move amendment No. 313, in
schedule 4, page 89, line 30, leave out lines 30 and 31 and insert—
'64 Murder.
64A Culpable homicide.
64B Assault.
64C Assault and robbery.
64D Abduction.
64E Plagium.
64F Wrongful imprisonment.
64G Threatening personal violence.
64H Breach of the peace inferring personal violence.
64I Wilful fireraising.
64J Culpable and reckless fireraising.
64K Mobbing and rioting.
64L An offence under section 2 of the Explosive Substances Act 1883 (c.3) (causing explosion likely to endanger life or property).
64M An offence under section 3 of that Act (attempt to cause explosion, or making or keeping explosives with intent to endanger life or property).
64N An offence under section 12 of the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937 (c.37) (cruelty to persons under 16).
64O An offence under section 16 of the Firearms Act 1968 (c.27) (possession of firearm with intent to endanger life).
64P An offence under section 16A of that Act (possession of firearm with intent to cause fear of violence).
64Q An offence under section 17(1) of that Act (use of firearm to resist arrest).
64R An offence under section 17(2) of that Act (possession of firearm at time of committing or being arrested for offence specified in Schedule 1 to that Act).
64S An offence under section 18 of that Act (carrying a firearm with criminal intent).
64T An offence under section 1 of the Taking of Hostages Act 1982 (c.28) (hostage-taking).
64U An offence under section 1 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 (c.36) (hijacking).
64V An offence under section 2 of that Act (destroying, damaging or endangering safety of aircraft).
64W An offence under section 3 of that Act (other acts endangering or likely to endanger safety of aircraft).
64X An offence under section 4 of that Act (offences in relation to certain dangerous articles).
64Y An offence under section 105 of the Mental Health (Scotland) Act 1984 (c.36) (ill-treatment of patients).
64Z An offence under section 1 of the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985 (c.38) (prohibition of female circumcision).
64ZA An offence under section 134 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c.33) (torture).
64ZB An offence under section 1 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c.52) (causing death by dangerous driving).
64ZC An offence under section 3A of that Act (causing death by careless driving when under influence of drink or drugs).
64ZD An offence under section 1 of the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 (c.31) (endangering safety at aerodromes).
64ZE An offence under section 9 of that Act (hijacking of ships).
64ZF An offence under section 10 of that Act (seizing or exercising control of fixed platforms).
64ZG An offence under section 11 of that Act (destroying fixed platforms or endangering their safety).
Column Number: 360
64ZH An offence under section 12 of that Act (other acts endangering or likely to endanger safe navigation).
64ZI An offence under section 13 of that Act (offences involving threats).
64ZJ An offence under Part II of the Channel Tunnel (Security) Order 1994 (S.I. 1994/570) (offences relating to Channel Tunnel trains and the tunnel system).
64ZK An offence under section 7 of the Criminal Law (Consolidation) (Scotland) Act 1995 (c.39) (procuring).
64ZL An offence under section 9 of that Act (permitting girl to use premises for intercourse).
64ZM An offence under section 11 of that Act (trading in prostitution and brothel-keeping).
64ZN An offence under section 12 of that Act (allowing child to be in brothel).
64ZO An offence under section 13(9) of that Act (living on earnings of male prostitution etc.).
64ZP An offence under section 50A of that Act (racially-aggravated harassment).
64ZQ An offence under section 51 or 52 of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c.17) (genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and related offences), other than one involving murder.
64ZR An offence under section 1 of the International Criminal Court (Scotland) Act 2001 (asp 13) (genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and related offences as specified in Schedule 1 to that Act).
64ZS An offence under section 22 of the Criminal Justice (Scotland) Act 2003 (asp 7) (traffic in prostitution etc.).
64ZT An offence to which section 74 of that Act applies (offences aggravated by religious prejudice).
64ZU An offence under section 315 of the Mental Health (Care and Treatment) (Scotland) Act 2003 (asp 13) (ill-treatment and wilful neglect of mentally disordered person).'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following:
Amendment No. 217, in
schedule 4, page 89, line 31, at end insert—
'64A Murder;
64B. Culpable homicide;
64C. Assault;
64D. Assault and robbery;
64E. Abduction;
64F. Plagium;
64G. Wrongful imprisonment;
64H. Threats of personal violence;
64I. Breach of the peace inferring personal violence;
64J. Wilful fireraising resulting in personal injury;
64K. Reckless fireraising resulting in personal injury;
64L. Mobbing and rioting;
64M. An offence under the Children and Young Persons (Scotland) Act 1937;
64N. An offence under section 16 of the Firearms Act 1968 (c.27) (possession of firearm with intent to endanger life).
64O. An offence under section 16A of that Act (possession of firearm with intent to cause fear of violence).
64P. An offence under section 17(1) of that Act (use of firearm to resist arrest).
64Q. An offence under section 17(2) of that Act (possession of firearm at time of committing or being arrested for offence specified in Schedule 1 to that Act).
64R. An offence under section 18 of that Act (carrying a firearm with criminal intent).
64S. An offence under section 1 of the Taking of Hostages Act 1982 (c.28) (hostage-taking).
Column Number: 361
64T. An offence under section 1 of the Aviation Security Act 1982 (c.36) (hijacking).
64U. An offence under section 2 of that Act (destroying, damaging or endangering safety of aircraft).
64V. An offence under section 3 of that Act (other acts endangering or likely to endanger safety of aircraft).
64W. An offence under section 4 of that Act (offences in relation to certain dangerous articles).
64X. An offence under section 1 of the Prohibition of Female Circumcision Act 1985 (c.38) (prohibition of female circumcision);
64Y. An offence under section 134 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988 (c.33) (torture);
64Z. An offence under section 1 of the Road Traffic Act 1988 (c.52) (causing death by dangerous driving).
64ZA. An offence under section 3A of that Act (causing death by careless driving when under influence of drink or drugs).
64ZB. An offence under section 1 of the Aviation and Maritime Security Act 1990 (c.31) (endangering safety at aerodromes).
64ZC. An offence under section 9 of that Act (hijacking of ships).
64ZD. An offence under section 10 of that Act (seizing or exercising control of fixed platforms).
64ZE. An offence under section 11 of that Act (destroying fixed platforms or endangering their safety).
64ZF. An offence under section 12 of that Act (other acts endangering or likely to endanger safe navigation).
64ZG. An offence under section 13 of that Act (offences involving threats).
64ZH. An offence under section 51 or 52 of the International Criminal Court Act 2001 (c.17) (genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and related offences), other than one involving murder.
Column Number: 362
64ZI. An offence under section 1 of the International Criminal Court (Scotland) Act 2001 (ASP 13) (genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes and related offences as specified in Schedule 1 to that Act.'.
Government amendment No. 320.
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