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Mr. Foster: I shall try to keep us going until 11.25 am, but I am not convinced that I will be able to, because schedule 1 contains paragraphs and sub-paragraphs that are so familiar to many of us who have served in the past on Committees that have discussed bodies such as the new rail body that it seems ludicrous to go through them in such great detail. I would have been interested had the hon. Member for Vale of York (Miss McIntosh) addressed the concerns that she and I have previously raised about the establishment of the Office of Rail Regulation. The schedule could have afforded an opportunity to slim down regulation in the way promised by the previous Secretary of State and recommended by the Select Committee on which the hon. Lady serves. The hon. Lady will remember that, when we last debated this matter, I specifically referred to the recommendation of the former Transport, Local Government and the Regions Committee that the role of the regulator should be reviewed. She advised me to have a look, if I had not done so already, at the minority report that she produced, as she rightly said, with considerable help from the Clerks, for which she was very grateful. I have now had an opportunity to read the report, but I see nothing in it that counteracts that recommendation about reviewing the way in which regulation takes place. I had therefore hoped that we would hear the hon. Lady's views on that issue today. Instead, she acted as a referee in advance of Mr. Tom Winsor's seeking to become chief executive. I have never heard such glowing eulogies for someone in advance of their even applying for a post. I hope that Tom Winsor will consider whether the hon. Lady would be an appropriate referee should he apply for that job. I shall apologise profusely if I am doing the hon. Lady an injustice, but I was disappointed with her apparent failure to do much research in advance of her speech. Her analysis of some of the paragraphs showed that she had not bothered to check the current arrangements in respect of the Office of Rail Regulation or legislation on other regulatory boards. She missed a few tricks. She said that bankruptcy was perfectly normal, but I am surprised that she had not discovered that one could question the Government about whether they had taken fully on board the Enterprise Act 2002, which provides that bankruptcy does not necessarily bar someone in all circumstances. I must tell the Minister that that is not covered. Will he therefore assure members of the Committee that the Government are taking recent legislation on bankruptcy fully into account? It was great to hear the hon. Lady saying that paragraph 8 seems to be perfectly normal and proper. We can all sleep well in our beds knowing that. The Column Number: 133 hon. Lady did not check other regulations, but one might have hoped that she would at least check the words on the papers before us and get those right before being critical about them.The hon. Lady asked a long series of questions about the definition of misbehaving, which is fair enough. We could all come up with a list of what might be deemed to be misbehaviour that could lead to dismissal, such as dancing naked on top of the new office premises to which the Office of Rail Regulation might move. Given her words on absence, I was surprised that the hon. Lady did not notice the next few words of paragraph 2(a):
The issues raised about someone who might legitimately be ill and absent for three months are perfectly adequately covered by the words ''without permission''. I am bitterly disappointed that we have spent 30-odd minutes discussing the subject, but have got no nearer to discovering what it is that the hon. Lady wants to know. We do know, however, that she is interested in discovering whether what the Government are doing is, as she described it, a vindictive move against a particular individual. Some Members may have conspiracy theories, but I have seen praise on the record for the work of Tom Winsor from senior members of the Government, the previous Secretary of State and the Department of Transport. I share the hon. Lady's view that, broadly speaking, Mr. Winsor has done a good job. One is bound to question some of the decisions taken, and I do not necessarily agree that everything that he has done has been perfect. Nevertheless, he has done an extremely good job. We know, and the hon. Lady has reminded us innumerable times, that the Better Regulation Task Force recommended that replacing an individual with a board would ensure that several things were likely to be done better. As she knows, because she has referred to the report in this and in other speeches, that would ensure wider expertise, continuity in decision making, greater transparency and greater accountability. The hon. Lady, clearly not having done her homework, asked the Minister what was happening to other regulators. She should be aware that every other regulator either has a board or is in the process of moving to have one. The rail regulator is the one remaining regulator that has not moved into that form of organisation. It makes eminent sense to move in that direction, for the very reasons that the hon. Lady gave. The hon. Lady asked one legitimate question about costs, and she chided me for not showing an interest. I wish to disabuse her of that notion. If one thinks something will be better but will cost significantly more, one must judge whether it will provide value for money. I will listen with interest to the Minister's response to that. However, I hope that for the rest of Column Number: 134 our deliberations Members who intend to speak will do their homework, and make clear their key areas of concern and suggestions for change. I hope that we will not have to listen to lengthy questions about the meaning of such words as ''behave'' because of a belief that there is a hidden agenda or that someone is being vindictive.Miss McIntosh: The hon. Gentleman says that he shares my concern about finances. Is he aware that the extra cost for the appointment of additional non-executive members of the regulatory board of the Office of Rail Regulation will be in the region of £200,000? Maths is not my strongest point, but if we tot up the cost of the non-executive directors plus the cost of replacing one individual with at least five, the costs will come to more than £1 million extra each year. We need to know what the costs will be and when the Government will receive the say-so from the Treasury. Mr. Foster: The hon. Lady rightly says that the changes could prove expensive. I hope she will receive an answer to her legitimate question. Maths is not my strong point either, so I shall not check on the back of my fag packet whether her calculations are correct. Mr. Kelvin Hopkins (Luton, North): We are talking about relatively trivial sums compared to the vast sums of money poured into the railways since privatisation. Does the hon. Gentleman agree that if just one VAT inspector, for example, is employed, he or she makes many times his or her salary every year? Good regulation may require more staff to be appointed who may make many times their own salaries in return? Mr. Foster: The hon. Gentleman is right. It is worth reflecting that the Better Regulation Task Force made this proposal. One must assume that better regulation will lead to more efficient and effective running of the railways and the commensurate financial saving to which he referred. I chide the hon. Gentleman a little, however. If the hon. Lady is right and we are talking about millions of pounds, he should not suggest that that is a small amount of money. After 10 years of operation, the cost would be £10 million, and I could suggest a few branch lines that could have benefited from that money. We need to be careful not to give the impression that £1 million here or there is not much money. However, if expending such a sum leads to savings well in excess of it, there would clearly be great benefit in doing so. That is why we need to hear the answer from the Minister. I genuinely believe that the Government are proposing the right way forward. However, I regret that the opportunity has not been taken to meet the pledge given by the previous Secretary of State to slim down regulation or to follow the advice of the former Transport, Local Government and the Regions Committee to review regulation with a view to slimming it down. I need to hear from the Minister categorical details about the costs and whether the Government have rightly taken into account recent legislation on bankruptcy. Column Number: 135
9.45 amMr. Spellar: I rise nearly an hour after the debate started, which might or might not have something to do with the fact that we have just received a brief visit from the Opposition Deputy Chief Whip, the hon. Member for West Derbyshire (Mr. McLoughlin). It is wrong to personalise the move. As the hon. Member for Bath said, we have consistently commented on the valuable work undertaken by the current regulator, and I cite the interim review in particular. I was interested in the commendation of the regulator by the hon. Member for Vale of York. Perhaps if she had taken more note of his powerful strictures on the management, or mismanagement, of Railtrack, she might have made more prudent decisions, at an earlier date, about her Railtrack shares. On cost, as has rightly been pointed out, the explanatory notes make it clear that the extra cost of appointing additional non-executive members will probably be less than £200,000, an increase of less than 1.5 per cent. in the rail regulator's budget, which will be covered, in part, by the industry, although I accept that that may be offset indirectly by increases in public subsidy. Miss McIntosh: The Minister says that much of the cost will be passed on to the industry. The industry is concerned, however, that its representation, especially on the British Transport police authority, will be reduced. It seems grossly unfair that the industry should pay more when it will have less representation.
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| ©Parliamentary copyright 2003 | Prepared 11 February 2003 |
