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Miss McIntosh: I am grateful for that clarification, but it re-emphasises the point that the British Transport police federation should be consulted on such matters. I am delighted that the Minister has agreed to introduce an amendment for that purpose.
Paragraph 27 says:
''The Secretary of State may make a payment to the Authority . . . by way of a grant''.
If it is a grant, will it be an annual, continuing or time-limited grant? If it is a loan, will the Government guarantee it and what will the terms of repayment be? I was interested to see the provision in paragraph 31:
''The Authority may acquire, develop or dispose of property.''
It would be interesting to know about the property that the existing British Transport police authority currently owns and that will be transferred under the Bill.
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Those are our main questions. There are several issues, which I will not rehearse, and we look forward to hearing the Minister's response.
Mr. Spellar: Again, the hon. Lady shows some confusion as well as an alarming tendency to centralise: she wants us not merely to set up the authority but to do all its work for it before it even comes into existence. She asks about the frequency of authority meetings. That will be a matter for the authority when it is set up. It is not for the Minister to direct, and it is certainly not appropriate to include such a provision in the Bill. She asked how many staff the authority intends to employ. That will be for the authority to decide when it considers how to provide appropriate policing that is consistent with its broader objectives and obligations.
The hon. Lady asked a pertinent question about the tenure of a position on the authority. Members of the present authority have a tenure of four years, and schedule 4(3)(1) states that:
''A member of the Authority shall hold and vacate office in accordance with the terms of his appointment''.
I shall return to the Committee to explain our thinking on ensuring consistency on that.
The hon. Lady asked about the annual budget for the British Transport police. At present, it is £130 million a year. I will come back to the hon. Lady to tell her how much of that budget is employers' contribution to the pension scheme. As I say, it will be managed within the legal and tax framework of a private sector pension scheme. The British Transport police authority will be independent of Government, as will its budget.
The hon. Lady raised the matter of grants. As she is aware, there is not an annual grant, or a commitment to make one. However, there is provision to make a grant, if it is justified. Earlier I spoke about funds that were provided for the British Transport police to participate in the police initiative on radios. I hope that I have allayed some of the hon. Lady's concerns, and explained how the authority will operate and how its financial regime will work.
Miss McIntosh: When will the Minister introduce the amendment that he referred to earlier? He did not respond to a question about long-term sick leave in the British Transport police, and he did not say whether his Department would seek more money from the Treasury for the additional responsibilities and costs that the British Transport police will incur under the Bill.
Mr. Spellar: Again, there seems to be a fundamental misunderstanding about the funding of the British Transport police. The hon. Lady would have to ask county forces how they intend to operate their precepts. The funding for the British Transport police comes from the industry, but there are provisions for the Government to make additional grants to the force, so that it can undertake various initiatives. I hope that that has clarified the matter. She also asked when we intend to introduce the necessary
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amendment. I am sure that she will understand that we will, as always, introduce it when appropriate.
Question put and agreed to.
Schedule 4, as amended, agreed to.
Clause 18
Exercise of functions
Question proposed, That the clause stand part of the Bill.
Miss McIntosh: I have a brief question about clause 18. We are told that the authority shall
''aim to ensure the efficient and effective policing of the railways and shall, in particular, have regard . . . in relation to a particular year, to the National Policing Plan for that year.''
Will the Under-Secretary show me where in the Bill we are told what the relationship will be between the British Transport police and the local police force? As regards the jurisdiction, it has been brought to our attention that a short phrase could make all the difference when looking into a case: ''in the vicinity of''.
The Under-Secretary talked us through the circumstances in which certain accidents, such as an accident involving a trolley bus, would be investigated by the local police force for that area, whereas an accident involving a tram would be investigated by the rail accident investigation branch, presumably in conjunction with the British Transport police. I want clarification on the relationship envisaged between the local police force and the British Transport police in the national policing plan, particularly where there may be some doubt about where an accident took place.
Mr. Spellar: Essentially, the relationship between the British Transport police and the local police force will be as now. The Bill will not change the roles; it will change the governance of the British Transport police, not the operational relationship between the British Transport police and the county forces. Some of the changes to the Ministry of Defence police allowed greater co-operation between the forces, particularly on the boundaries between their respective areas.
Clause 18 examines the new police authority and sets out the factors that will influence its decisions when establishing its aims and objectives in the exercise of its functions. It says that, when carrying out its functions, the authority will have to take account of objectives set by the Secretary of State and others laid out in the national policing plan for that year. It puts the functions of the British Transport police authority police within a national framework in which specific objectives can be set by the Secretary of State. It looks at the wider inter-relationship with the national policing plan. None of that impacts immediately on the local relationship between the British Transport police and the county forces, with which it interacts on an operational basis.
Question put and agreed to.
Clause 18 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 19
Establishment of Police Force
Miss McIntosh: I beg to move amendment No. 54, in
clause 19, page 8, line 35, after 'expenses of the', insert 'British Transport'.
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss the following amendments:
No. 55, in
clause 19, page 8, leave out line 36.
No. 56, in
clause 20, page 9, line 2, after 'Constable of the', insert 'British Transport'.
No. 57, in
clause 20, page 9, line 30, after 'Constable of the', insert 'British Transport'.
Miss McIntosh: The amendment is purely for the purposes of clarification. We have just had a brief, but helpful discussion and the Minister has made some useful comments about the relationship between the British Transport police and the British police force generally. Certain clauses relate to amendments Nos. 54, 56 and 57. Whenever the police force is referred to in the Bill, it would be much better to distinguish it by using its full name and to refer to it as the British Transport police force. That is why the amendments seek to delete line 36. I am sure that it is referred to as ''the Police Force'' purely as a shorthand reference, but I believe that it could be confusing if the force and other forces are referred to in the context of other legislation. We therefore suggest that, throughout, the Bill should refer to the British Transport police force in order clearly to distinguish it from its local counterparts.
3.45 pm
Tom Brake (Carshalton and Wallington): The notes prepared for me on the amendment describe it as grammatical pedantry. That may be a little unfair, although to be consistent the change will have to be reflected throughout the Bill, which would be a considerable undertaking. I suspect that it will not warrant the effort.
Mr. Spellar: I think that it is accurate to describe the amendment as grammatical pedantry. I urge the Committee reject it, if the hon. Member for Vale of York does not withdraw it.
Miss McIntosh: That is all very interesting, but the Minister has not grasped the point that there will be confusion were we minded to withdraw the amendment. It may be appropriate to withdraw it, but Minister may regret his lack of support for it, because we believe that it would lead to greater clarity. I beg to ask leave to withdraw the amendment.
Amendment, by leave, withdrawn.
Clause 19 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clauses 20 to 22 ordered to stand part of the Bill.
Clause 23
Constables
Mr. Spellar: I beg to move amendment No. 64, in
The Chairman: With this it will be convenient to discuss Government amendments Nos. 36, 65, 66 and 67.
Mr. Spellar: At present, in England and Wales, Home Office police constables make an attestation under the Police Act 1996. In Scotland, police constables make a declaration under the Police (Scotland) Act 1967. Attestations and declarations are oaths made by persons who have been appointed as a police constable. In England and Wales, constables attest that they will serve the Queen, uphold human rights and preserve and prevent all offences against people and property. In Scotland, constables declare that they will faithfully discharge the duties of the office of constable.
Clause 23 provides that the authority shall appoint constables, and clause 24 provides that the authority can appoint special constables. Both clauses apply the existing attestation and declaration used in the respective countries to BTP officers and special constables.
The amendments are necessary to make it clear that the clauses apply the declaration or attestation to BTP constables, depending on where they are appointed. Amendments Nos. 64 to 67 make it clear that a single attestation or declaration by a BTP constable will be sufficient; he will not need to make both. For example, when a BTP officer in Scotland is appointed, he will make a declaration under Scottish law. He will not then need to make an attestation under the law of England and Wales should he need to cross the border. Thus, a BTP constable will have the powers and privileges of a constable throughout Great Britain by virtue of clause 29(1). Amendment No. 36 solely concerns the BTP constable's declaration under the Police (Scotland) Act 1967. At the moment, clause 23(4) refers to special constables. That is incorrect. The amendment ensures that BTP constables appointed in Scotland will make a declaration.
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