| Licensing Bill [Lords]
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Mr. Turner: I accept that. The Minister said that those involved in a spontaneous performance would not usually be required to obtain a licence. He said that there will be occasions when it is appropriate for a spontaneous dance and performance and other occasions when it will not be appropriate, and in the majority of cases licences will not be required. I take that to mean that, notwithstanding the provisions in the Bill, the local authority will have discretion as to whether it seeks an application from groups such as those that have been in contact with us. If the Minister is happy with that, I am happy with it, although it may or may not provide security for the morris dancers and others who have been in touch with us. It relies on the good sense of local authorities and, regrettably, that commodity is somewhat rare in some local authorities.
2.45 pmI realise that in many local authorities, good sense prevails 99 per cent. of the time. I am sure that it prevails 100 per cent. of the time in distinguished local authorities such as the one on which my hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) recently served. However, that is not always the case, as the hon. Member for North Devon perhaps knows, and as I certainly know. Local authorities can get a bit bureaucratic and say, ''Well, the Bill says that and it doesn't say anything about discretion.'' I have at last grasped what the Minister is trying to say. I am sorry that it has taken me until this stage in the Bill. He is saying that local authorities must exercise common sense. Mr. Moss: I welcome you back to the Committee, Mr. Gale. I listened with interest to what the Minister said. I am pleased that he met the people who have been lobbying us to explain the Bill's practical implications Column Number: 445 for their activities. It is encouraging to hear that the majority of people were reassured and concluded that most of their activities would not require licences. Some activities would require entertainment licences, which presumably do not have to be applied for at present.Dr. Howells: I am not sure whether I understood the hon. Gentleman correctly. He knows that at present the licensee of a licensed premises must apply to a local authority for an entertainment licence if he or she wants to put on a musical event that involves more than two musicians. It is not true to say that people do not have to apply for such licences at present; they most certainly do. Mr. Moss: I am grateful to the Minister for clarifying that. I had not overlooked it, but the onus is on the pub landlord or the licensee who invites morris dancers on to his premises to make sure that he has the appropriate licence. The people who spoke to us were concerned about the implications for themselves, rather than for licence holders at establishments that they frequent. Will the Minister clarify the point about morris dancers instigating activities at the weekend? He alluded to the fact that they could visit half a dozen or even a dozen different establishments during their activities on, say, a Sunday. Some of those activities might well be within the curtilage of various pubs, in which case the entertainment licence would hopefully be taken care of by the licence holder. However, many activities would be on the village green or outside a pub. Are we categorically stating that if such an event were not advertised and were spontaneous, in the sense that it took place because the morris dancers happened to be in the village and decided to do something in that location, they would not be transgressing the law if they did not seek a licence? The Minister spoke about morris dancing outside a pub in Battersea. I should have thought that common sense would prevail in most situations, and I cannot envisage such people dancing in a place that would cause havoc at one of the busiest crossroads in the metropolis, let alone on busy roads in some of our villages. The Minister said that if morris dancers were going to impinge on the public highway or cause difficulties, they would ''give notice''—I wrote those words down—to the police and perhaps the licensing authority. What does he mean by giving notice? Would that be for a temporary event activity, or would it be a matter of common sense that, as they might impinge on the highway, they should let the local police and licensing authority know that something was about to happen? It would be helpful to know exactly what the Minister meant by giving notice. We used that as an argument way back when we discussed public entertainment licences. Rather than having to apply for licences, if people simply gave notice to the local police that they were holding an event, in most cases that should sort out the problem of the numbers likely to attend, the premises and so on. I should like some clarification, if possible. Column Number: 446 Can the Minister say that, having explained the Bill and its implications to various groups, in the main they are now satisfied that the requirements are not too onerous and expensive, that they can live with them and that they will not curtail their activities, which are an important part of rural life? To go back to something that I said this morning, if we are to make new law, let us make sure that it improves the situation, rather than it imposing more regulation and making life more difficult. That will lead fewer people to say that the new law is too much hassle and they cannot be bothered with it. I speak sincerely about the rural community. I know more about it than about the urban community. A great deal goes on in the rural community—we will come to that in the next series of amendments—and if the requirements of the Bill are too heavy, they will impinge on the day-to-day activities of many people in the rural environment, to the detriment of our culture and our society. I tabled the amendment as a probing amendment to ascertain whether there had been contact with those who will be affected by the Bill. Such contact has indeed taken place, and I am grateful to the Minister for talking to those people. I know that in any event he has an open-door policy for anyone who wants to talk to him, and that is a good thing. I also sought clarification of the implications for various groups in the event of a non-advertised situation. I go back to a topic that I mentioned in our discussions of schedule 1—the festival in the small town of Whittlesey in my constituency. It is called the straw bear festival and takes place in January. About 30 different groups from all parts of the country come to the town for the festival. Because it takes over the town, I am sure that the appropriate measures are taken with the police. People not only march through the town, but dance spontaneously outside pubs and in pub car parks. In that scenario, as long as the police are happy that the festival is properly organised and the appropriate fees are paid for extra policing and traffic direction, will the Minister give me an assurance that none of the morris-dancing teams that stop in various locations would need an entertainment licence or a temporary event notice prior to the event? I ask about that because the event is advertised and many people attend it. The teams stop and spontaneously perform different pieces around the town. I should be pleased to hear the Minister's response. Dr. Howells: I shall come to that. I am sure the Committee would want to know that it was this Government who ended the ban on dancing on Sunday, which had been in place for 200 years. So there is an upside, and we are not intending to crush culture in every respect. Amendment No. 383 would not exempt folk music and dance from the requirement for an authorisation under the temporary event notice system. Instead, it would remove the requirement for the person giving the temporary event notice to provide information about the licensable activities to be carried on at the event in question, where those activities involve
Column Number: 447 The only benefit to be derived from the amendment would be a negligible reduction in the effort required of the person giving the notice. That must be measured against the potential for larger-scale activities that could give rise to concerns relating to the licensing objectives. The hon. Member for North-East Cambridgeshire is right to point out that that would not always be the case, but he mentioned an example in his constituency. The amendment would deprive the police of the information necessary for them to judge the implications of an event for crime prevention. The hon. Gentleman asked a number of specific questions. One of them was about morris dancers stopping off at locations that they may decide on as they go along. During my conversation with morris dancing groups, I was told that they drive around in their minibuses and when they see a good spot—it may be by a beautiful oak tree or where there are lots of people—they stop and dance. It would be extremely difficult, if not absurd, for them to have to seek some kind of permission to do that, and we are not saying that they should do so. The onus will be on the premises user to ensure that he or she possesses the necessary authorisation for activities to be carried out. For example, that would apply to the festival in the village that the hon. Gentleman mentioned, the name of which I missed. Mr. Moss: Whittlesey. Dr. Howells: On the main evening of that festival, several thousand more people than usual may be in Whittlesey. Special permissions may have been sought for extensions, and events may be taking place at pubs and other places. It is important that the organisers of such events and the performers are well versed in what is required of them, that they are able to do those things well and that they have a good relationship with each other. As I tried to explain to the hon. Member for Isle of Wight (Mr. Turner), common sense is required, and I am sure that there have been examples of festivals that have been blighted by the lack of it, but I am unsure whether we can legislate for that in every respect. Often, sheer bloody-mindedness can damage an event that may be enjoyed by 75 per cent. of the town. When morris dancers decide to perform on a particular day, I am reliably informed by them that it is likely that they will alert the authorities to the vicinity where they will be, especially if their performance is likely to be a big event that draws lots of people. There is nothing to stop the local authority from licensing large stretches of public space such as streets, roads or greens so that entertainment can be performed there. During my conversation with the morris dancers, I discovered that many local authorities have done just that. There has never been a problem with that, and we do not envisage that any will arise in the future. Morris dancers who perform on roads may be providing regulated entertainment, but the expectation is that in many such cases the local authority will have obtained a premises licence, which will enable them to undertake those activities, and even to enjoy a drink. Column Number: 448
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