Draft Commissioner for Children and Young People (Northern Ireland) Order 2003

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Rev. Martin Smyth: The Minister may be aware that Barnardo's and others have expressed some concern that children in the juvenile justice system and children seeking asylum may have different means of access to the commissioner, because he will have to rely on children seeking asylum coming forward before any case could be raised. Will the Minister comment on the problem that might arise if there were a conflict between two types of system?

Mr. Browne: I am grateful to the hon. Gentleman for raising that issue. As he will know, and as other Committee members will understand, because I continue to have responsibilities in the Northern Ireland Office, especially in relation to the juvenile justice system, I was a party to the discussion and acceptance of the remit of the proposed commissioner. In fact, I was intimately involved in the discussions. There is, as those who have lobbied the hon. Gentleman pointed out, a difference in the extent of the powers that are available to the commissioner in relation to the general reviews of arrangements of authorities that operate in the reserve field, such as the juvenile justice system. The commissioner cannot, for example, use the formal powers of entry and disclosure of information in such general reviews. I stress, however, that the powers are available in reviews of individual cases, and children and young people will

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have equal rights of access to the commissioner, regardless of the system in which they find themselves.

The statutory framework for the operation of authorities in the juvenile justice system, for example, was not exactly the same as that for some other authorities. There are, of course, interesting issues of accountability involved in this case, because a public authority that is accountable to a devolved Administration will have powers over a reserved matter. That is one of the interesting issues that devolution raises, but our constitution has consistently been flexible enough to accommodate such matters. That is one of the great advantages of not having a written constitution.

We are discussing difficult issues that will need to be worked through between the devolved Administration and their institutions, when they are restored. In my experience, such problems are, in time, worked through with good will on the part of the Government and the devolved institutions. At the root of my advocacy on behalf of the reserved authorities for a differentiation was a desire to ensure that anyone being investigated would be judged according to statutory priorities that Parliament had set for them, not a set of statutory priorities that had been accepted for other authorities by the devolved Administration.

I am pleased that we were able to accede to the request that reserved authorities be placed under the remit of the commissioner. I am also pleased that we were able to do so under just one Bill, as the provision then was, and the draft order now. I am glad that there will be consistency in how we ask people to discharge their functions, and in how those functions will be overseen by such an important authority. However, I am at pains to point out to both the Committee and the people of Northern Ireland that the differentiation is a long way from the suggestion that young people in the juvenile justice system are being denied access to the commissioner. Nothing could be further from the truth. Young people who happen to be involved with the juvenile justice system will have exactly the same personal access to the commissioner as other children in Northern Ireland.

The draft order is complex, but that reflects the care taken to ensure that the commissioner has the full range of tools necessary to do the job effectively. Part of the complexity is due to facts that I have explained to the Committee. The complexity also reflects many of the comments received in consultation. We had more than 300 responses, many of which were good. Practically all those who responded welcomed the order enthusiastically, but all of them had different priorities and views as to where the commissioner should concentrate his powers and remits. In my view, that complexity is a reflection of the complex nature of the society in which we live, and when we try to engage with children in order to let their voice be heard, it is important that we be prepared do that in a complex way if necessary.

We in government believe that the Office of the Commissioner for Children and Young People for

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Northern Ireland will place Northern Ireland at the leading edge of international best practice, and the children of Northern Ireland deserve no less.

2.48 pm

Mr. John Taylor (Solihull): No discourtesy is intended to you, Mr. Beard, the Committee, the Minister, or anyone else involved in this important process, but I shall have to withdraw shortly from the Committee, as I have an important appointment with the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland at 3 o'clock. My hon. Friend the Member for Cities of London and Westminster (Mr. Field) is next to me on the Front Bench, and I am sure that he can take an account of any interesting developments and will let me know of them. However, it is unlikely that he will have to, because Her Majesty's Opposition have no objection to the measure, and wish it well. The Minister will know that from time to time I have—good-naturedly, I trust—teased him about Northern Ireland measures that have introduced yet more commissioners and ombudsmen. A shortage of institutions is not one of the problems that Northern Ireland suffers from—it has plenty of them.

We wish the measure well. It is aimed at some of the most vulnerable people in society, and if we were in a debating society—although this matter is far too important to be discussed by such an organisation—and someone had challenged me to try to find cause to dispute or disagree with the order, I would have found it very difficult to do so. We offer the Government positive support; we feel good will towards the measure. We hope that it passes into law quickly and effectively, and that it will do the good that it is intended to do.

I have one question. It has been estimated that the costs for the establishment of the Office of the Commissioner for Children and Young People for Northern Ireland was about £1 million. Will the Minister confirm that that estimate is correct, and will he also give the Committee an estimate of the annual running costs?

I will now withdraw from the Committee, but no discourtesy is intended.

2.51 pm

Rev. Martin Smyth: I understand why the hon. Member for Solihull (Mr. Taylor) had to retire from the Committee. It is interesting that he has left me to ensure that my Member of Parliament—the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster—represents me properly and does not unduly filter what I wish him to say on my behalf.

I welcome the order. It seems as if it was a long time ago when, in a previous incarnation in the other place, Baroness Golding was one of the front-runners on the creation of the commissioner, and I supported her. I am delighted that we have reached this stage, and the Minister will join me in paying tribute to the work that has been done in Northern Ireland by the Assembly—he alluded to that—and in welcoming the consultation period that was adopted.

On behalf of many colleagues in Northern Ireland, I pay tribute to Wales for the help that we received. The

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Care Standards Act 2000 established the Office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales. The Office of the Commissioner for Children and Young People for Northern Ireland will be very different from the Welsh equivalent, but Peter Clarke shared his experiences with us and the Office of the Children's Commissioner for Wales made representations to the Northern Ireland Assembly.

As the Minister said, the order serves to indicate clearly the value of close co-operation within and between Government Departments and other agencies: that is evidence that we have a governmental system that delivers on key social local issues and that we have the political capacity and maturity to make the system work effectively.

In the Assembly, my colleagues and I must be careful because we must try to express the position of Ulster Unionists and at the same time recognise the diversity of views in the Assembly and in Northern Ireland. In the Assembly, my colleagues expressed concerns that the powers of the commissioner to investigate authorities and recommend changes in policy, practice or law might undermine the role of—for example—the Police Service of Northern Ireland or social services departments, and we are delighted that there has been a clear understanding that that will not happen. We therefore welcome the provisions to ensure that the commissioner's inspection review role will rise over and above that of the normal channels of investigation. The commissioner will exercise functions only when all other channels have failed the children involved.

I welcome the Minister's immediate response to my request for clarification on children in the juvenile justice system and children who are seeking asylum. As the Minister may be aware, Barnardo's has suggested that

''the issues raised by these children are monitored during the first three years of operation of the Commissioner's Office and included in the three year review of this legislation.''

That would confirm the Minister's genuine and generous undertaking that such children should suffer no impediment. If a review is held, and if monitoring is carried out, those who have doubts may see figures that will challenge those doubts and encourage them to support the system.

I welcome the inspectorate's involvement in education. For some time, there has been concern that children who ought to have been statemented have not been statemented. I welcome the undertaking that the inspectorate would not be able to override a decision of the ombudsman that a child should be statemented.

As I have read the order, one thing has struck me time and time again. We live in a world in which people demand rights. I have concluded, rightly or wrongly, that we now have a wish list on which whatever a person wants has become their right. I share the views of those in the Assembly who argue that it should be incumbent on the commissioner to promote understanding of not just the rights of children but their responsibilities. We will get adults who exercise greater responsibility if we inculcate into

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children the concept of both demanding rights and meeting responsibilities. It is good to promote a culture of respect for other people's rights, but that does not get across the concept of responsibility. Citizens and parents have responsibilities and children should likewise be encouraged to have responsibilities.

In discussions on article 7(1)(a) and (b), Members of the Assembly advocated inclusion of the concept of responsibility. The Committee of the Centre agreed, but did not go any further than the question of cultural respect. Do the Government agree that children and young people should be, could be, or even must be helped to learn about their responsibilities as well as their rights?

We welcome broadening the definition of parents to include others who may have a parenting role. During discussions on article 6(3)(a), the importance of the rights and responsibilities of parents in the upbringing and development of their children was raised. Tragically, parents in Northern Ireland and elsewhere seem to have lost that sense of responsibility in caring for their children. Tragedies have occurred when the basic law of the land has been ignored because parents did not accept their responsibilities and left their children unsupervised at strange hours. Social services departments in Northern Ireland have regularly faced such circumstances when a father and mother have gone off on a drinking spree and left children aged under 16—some as young as seven—unattended at home.

We should carry our concerns a little further. I understand that an attempt was made to connect the role of parents with the definition of parental responsibility in article 6(1) of the Children (Northern Ireland) Order 1995, which said:

'' 'parental responsibility' means all the rights, duties, powers, responsibilities and authority which by law a parent of a child has in relation to the child and his property.''

That limits the rights of parents to their legal rights, but parents' rights under the UN convention on the rights of the child are broader than that. Article 14.2 of the convention says:

''States Parties shall respect the rights and duties of the parents and, when applicable, legal guardians, to provide direction to the child in the exercise of his or her right in a manner consistent with the evolving capacities of the child.''

Why have the Government chosen to use the phrase ''role of parents'' rather than

''responsibilities, rights and duties of parents'',

which is used in the UNCRC?

I am sure that the Minister is aware of debate in Northern Ireland on the place of the unborn child. That is safeguarded by Northern Ireland legislation and even as late as 1955, a legal requirement to safeguard rights was introduced. Eight out of 12 Members from across the political spectrum contributed to the debate on that issue and emphasised that point. However, such provisions have been set aside for reasons best known to the draftsmen. One reason is that it might cost too much to give that added responsibility to the commissioner but one queries whether that is a reason for not doing it.

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Prepared 16 January 2003