Draft Commissioner for Children and Young People (Northern Ireland) Order 2003

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Mr. Browne: I do not propose to rest on only this issue, but apropos the argument that the hon. Gentleman advanced, he should know that a further reason why the more restricted definition of the child is in the order is because of the very UN convention on the rights of the child that he prayed in aid of his earlier argument. I say that because it shows a classic example of how international law interacts with domestic law. The restrictive approach that he suggested in relation to another matter might not serve this argument.

Rev. Martin Smyth: I understand what the Minister says but if that is read across, there are conflicts all along the line. Mothers are responsible for the health of their unborn children. There is legislation on that, and there are cases of parents being brought to account because they have not safeguarded their unborn child. Tragically, in at least one case damages were awarded to a child who was wounded in the womb.

Several arguments proposed against that point would be counterproductive if one examined all law. Although we cannot amend the order today, I would like to think that we are at least putting on the record the concern of many in Northern Ireland that the rights of that child should be protected. It seems that those who wrote the Old Testament were aware of the modern genetic and health regime before we discovered it. There are teachings on what we should do for the child—the dietary procedures for the child that was promised to Hannah are prescribed, for example. We live in a fascinating world.

My final point is on the accountability of the commissioner. The Minister mention that, and I would like further clarification. As I understand it, a proposed amendment would have required that the commissioner, if he intended to exercise his power of entry, would have had to apply to a justice of the peace. I understand that the Committee's advisers were to find out whether that was a standard provision.

It seems to me that there should be some sort of protection against a commissioner denying legal representation to a person. I am concerned about those who may be caught up in the legislation, the sort of people who find it difficult—as many of us do—to fill in government forms. There may be a need for parents who are not well informed on the grounds of law to be accompanied by someone to argue their case before the commissioner. As I understand the concerns of those who raised this issue with me, the order could be interpreted in such a way that the commissioner would have the powers to say, ''No, you're not allowed a legal representative in this situation.'' Will the Minister give us some guidance on that matter?

3.7 pm

Alan Howarth (Newport, East): It is a pleasure, as always, to follow the hon. Member for Belfast, South (Rev. Martin Smyth), who spoke thoughtfully about some of the important issues that arise in the context of the legislation. In the spirit already established by him and the hon. Member for Solihull, I shall not be contentious. I wish to make two points, and my hon.

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Friend the Member for Enfield, North (Joan Ryan) and other members of the Committee will be relieved to know that I shall be very brief.

First, I want to say that, as a representative of a Welsh constituency, our experience of having a Children's Commissioner for Wales has been very positive. The principle of the office, and the conduct of the role by the occupant of the office, Mr. Peter Clarke, have proved more than satisfactory, and have done much to ensure the dignity and well-being of children in Wales.

I therefore congratulate the people of Northern Ireland, who can now anticipate that they will have a children's commissioner for Northern Ireland. I shall not dwell at length on the differences between the scope and powers of the two commissioners, nor will I extol the merits of the system as it has developed in Wales, because there is no need to do so. However, I believe that it is greatly in the interests of children in Northern Ireland that this legislation should be passed. I congratulate the Minister on ensuring that such legislation, which might have faltered in the political circumstances of Northern Ireland, has been pursued, and I hope that it will be enacted very shortly.

Secondly, I want to ask the Minister a question. Knowing that the process of governing the United Kingdom is a seamless web, I hope that he will be able to offer the Committee the encouragement to believe that we may not have to wait unduly long before the office of a children's commissioner for England is created. My hon. Friend the Minister mentioned that Scottish colleagues can look forward to the benefit of a children's commissioner for Scotland. Northern Ireland will have one. Wales already has one. It is invidious and anomalous to the point of being a serious fault that England should not have one. I can understand how some people in Whitehall might blanch at the thought of the creation of a children's commissioner for England who might carry out the role described in the documents, which is to advise the authorities and challenge them when necessary—something that is never popular in Whitehall.

I hope that those of us who strongly believe that the institution has already proved to be beneficial in Wales and who believe that it will also be beneficial in Northern Ireland and Scotland will encourage our colleagues in Whitehall, and especially Ministers, not to be alarmed by such a prospect for England, which tends to improve the quality of government and, much more importantly, will be good for children.

3.10 pm

Lembit Öpik (Montgomeryshire): As the right hon. Member for Newport, East (Alan Howarth) said, Wales led the way in establishing a children's commissioner. I am pleased that the hon. Member for Belfast, South believes that Wales has benefited from what we did there. It was not all my own work, so I shall pass the compliment on to the Assembly and to everyone else who was involved. It was also a credit to cross-party co-operation. There seems to be the same feeling in Northern Ireland in relation to the order. One might suggest that England should have

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the proportional representation that Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland enjoy if it is to get a children's commissioner.

Many debates sadly overlap because of the hugely compressed hours in which we must now do everything, and I apologise to the Minister if I have to leave before he finishes making his remarks. I did not vote for the change in hours, but I would be grateful if the hon. Member for Cities of London and Westminster could also cover for me if I must leave early, which I shall try not to do. Perhaps we should just leave him here on his own.

Tribute has been paid to various groups in Northern Ireland, but I would like to place on record the name of Monica McWilliams, Member of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland and a member of the Women's Coalition, who introduced a private Member's Bill on the subject. The Office of the First Minister and Deputy First Minister picked up the idea and introduced its own Bill. The work of Monica McWilliams was largely responsible for the progress made.

We heard about Barnardo's concerns about the juvenile justice system and about asylum-seeking children having different access to it. The Minister attempted to respond to those concerns, and I agree that, technically, they have the same access to the system. However, I am concerned that they might be less inclined to use it because of their circumstances. I am not sure that there is much point repeating the arguments because we will see whether there is a need to be concerned when the system is operating. I do not want to waste the Committee's time exploring something that might not be an issue. I simply make the observation that it is necessary to keep a watching brief to ensure that those groups, and others that we have not thought of, are not unnecessarily disadvantaged through no fault of their own because of unforeseen barriers to accessing the commissioner. I suspect, but cannot prove, that the children least likely to have that access are often the ones most in need of it.

Sue Ramsey, Member of the Legislative Assembly in Northern Ireland, pointed out to me that the best-interests principle is the accepted international standard for protecting children's rights. Does the Minister have any observations to make about how we can ensure that the commissioner protects the best interests of all children when carrying out his or her functions?

The Minister touched on another point made by Sue Ramsey about the commissioner having a role in accessing and monitoring many different parts of the public services in Northern Ireland in respect of compliance with children's rights and regulations. I apologise if he has already said it, but can the Minister assure me that the commissioner will have a role in accessing and monitoring draft proposals early enough to ensure that the input can make a difference to the measure? A good example of what the Stormont Assembly was able to do when it was in operation, and a good example, too, of devolution working well, is that the Commissioner for Children and Young People Bill had a lot of scrutiny in Committee; I feel rather

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like a messenger for those who shepherded it through. Rhetorically, I observe that it is a shame that Members in a small Room in Westminster have finished off a worthy project that started in Stormont. If anyone needed evidence that the Stormont Assembly could carry out practical, sensible and effective legislative developments, the proposal for a children's commissioner for Northern Ireland would be a good example.

3.15 pm

Mr. Browne: I am grateful to all members of the Committee for their support for the measure, and especially grateful to the hon. Member for Solihull for expressing the official Opposition's support for the provisions. I understand why he had to leave the Committee, but as he is going to meet the Secretary of State at my right hon. Friend's invitation I cannot carp about it—not that I would, in any event. I am sorry that for the first time since the suspension of devolution I have breached the hon. Gentleman's golden rule about a proposal that sets up another public authority, but I gather from the way in he made his contribution that he was pleased that his own rule had been breached in respect of a Northern Ireland measure.

I share the regret of all hon. Members who have contributed to the debate that the proposal could not be seen through by the Executive in Northern Ireland and the Assembly to which they are accountable. As the hon. Members for Montgomeryshire (Lembit Öpik) and for Belfast, South said, this is a fine example of what local politicians, elected and accountable to the local electorate, can do when they are given the opportunity to express the views and priorities of their own people. It is one of the adornments of devolution in the United Kingdom. It is a pity that they were not allowed to see it bloom, but we hope that the practical outworking will be its greatest advantage to the children who will be supervised and governed by the restored institutions of devolution in Northern Ireland. Respecting the best interests and rights of children will make a significant contribution to a peaceful and stable Northern Ireland. We should be honoured that we have been able to make a small contribution to that important process for a significant part of the population of Northern Ireland, although we regret that local politicians were not able to see it through.

Some hon. Members want to record their thanks to individuals for their contributions to the process, which has led to where we are today and will in due course lead to a significant improvement of the lot of children in Northern Ireland. It would be invidious of me to pick out certain people but I concur with the observations made about individuals, including Baroness Golding, and about Monica McWilliams, who made a significant contribution to some radical thinking about what is needed to construct governance and legislation in Northern Ireland that will add to its peace and stability.

It is incumbent on me to say that members of all political parties and of none in Northern Ireland have made an important contribution to the policy. It is a credit to the people of Northern Ireland and to their

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politicians that establishing a public authority to protect the best interests and rights of children was seen to be a priority for their new Assembly and new devolved institutions. I pay tribute to those who have made a contribution, although unfortunately I am unable to name them all. I think that everyone in Northern Ireland can hold up his or her head today. This is a good day for Northern Ireland.

The hon. Member for Solihull asked me about money. We are concerned about the cost, but unless it is extravagantly stupid money, it will be a price worth paying. It will cost £1.5 million in the first year, including set-up costs. It is budgeted that the year-to-year running costs will be about £1.9 million. As with other aspects of the commissioner's remit and duties, that will have to be reviewed. All aspects of his office will be open to review and that will include any powers, whether they are different or the same, relating to young people in the juvenile justice system or asylum seekers. I am happy to give the assurance to those hon. Members who sought it that the review will be able to cover that. The ombudsman will be responsible for determining when and where aspects of the ombudsman's office are reviewed and what priority is given to the review.

I welcome the support given to the measure by the hon. Member for Belfast, South and members of his party, not least of whom, of course, is the former First Minister. They have made a significant contribution to the development of this policy. The hon. Gentleman made the point about avoiding duplication and overlap. We all agree about that. As he says, that is a key feature of the legislation. He specifically asked me about the role of the commissioner in relation to the education and training inspectorate. He welcomed the fact that the commissioner's role will include the education and training inspectorate, for the obvious reason that we cannot have enough certainty that those who require services because of special educational needs are served properly by the state. The commissioner will be able to review the inspection arrangements of that body, and in particular to examine the adequacy of services for children with special educational needs and the arrangements for assessing those needs.

 

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Prepared 16 January 2003