Northern Ireland Act 2000 (Modification) Order 2003
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David Burnside: The Government and Committee members have no choice. We can do nothing other than support the order, but I hope that this is the last time that we ever have to debate the matter. We are coming towards the last chance to obtain some form of devolution in Northern Ireland in the foreseeable future. We hope that the House will be given full information about the package drawn up by the British and Irish Prime Ministers, which will, we Column Number: 11 believe, be presented to the parties at Hillsborough on Thursday. There will be a period of debate to try to come to an agreement on a workable, stable form of devolved government at Stormont. The Assembly has been on and off, on and off. Government does not need to be that way, with orders, councils, and everyone wondering what will happen next. We need some stability in Northern Ireland.We will have an opportunity to consider the package. If it does not include—I do not mind the language—the total cessation of all terrorist and criminal activity, and targeting, on the part of the Provisional IRA, there will be no agreement with the Ulster Unionist party. The ball is in the court of the Provisional IRA and, through its political leadership, members of its army council, Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness. They can decide whether to co-operate with their fellow Ulstermen and Irishmen in the next few weeks. The timetable is not bad. It runs until October, and gives us the last opportunity for widespread consensus at Stormont. I am not overly optimistic, however, because the process has proved to me that the Sinn Fein-Provisional IRA leadership cannot be trusted or relied on. It lied through its teeth, both publicly and privately. Operationally, the Government gave Sinn Fein-Provisional IRA a veto, which they have maintained. That veto allows Sinn Fein-Provisional IRA to stop the law-abiding parties—the Ulster Unionist, Democratic Unionist, Alliance, and Social Democratic and Labour parties, together with all the smaller fringe parties that seem to grow in the Northern Ireland Assembly—enjoying the benefits of devolution, one of which is the ability to approach our Ministers. Today I was trying to deal with the problem of Harland and Woolf, and was trying to ensure that it continues to be included in the Thales aircraft carrier shipbuilding contracts. Harland and Woolf, our great old shipyard, which is a shadow of its former self, wants to be included in the design team and, perhaps, in some construction work. As a Member of Parliament, I would prefer to deal with a local Minister, but I am happy dealing with a direct rule Minister. We have many problems, but there are advantages to devolution and the localness of Stormont: local people feel that we can look after our affairs and have consultation and debate, and there could, we hope, be a lot of consensus across the political spectrum. That, however, is impossible while Sinn Fein have not gone from terrorism to democracy. The Minister will understand that there is much hype and razzamatazz around air force 1 and the President of the United States, who is welcome in Northern Ireland. The President is at Hillsborough tonight conducting, I hope, the conclusion of the war in the Gulf against those who would not give up weapons of mass destruction under international law. Tomorrow morning, though, at half past nine, he will meet two members of the army council of the Provisional IRA—Gerry Adams and Martin Column Number: 12 McGuinness—who have not given up their illegal arms and explosives in Northern Ireland, the Republic of Ireland or the mainland of Great Britain; yet, we are told, we cannot have devolution unless they are part of the process. There will come a stage at which they must play the game, totally disband—the words ''totally disband'' mean just that—and stop targeting, spying in the Northern Ireland Office and breaking into police stations. There is no credibility for the word of the Provisional IRA or the Sinn Fein leadership.If devolution can be re-established, so be it. I have my doubts. If, by 14 October, when suspension runs out, Ulster politicians of the democratic parties, which have different philosophies, view and, perhaps, different end games, cannot co-operate, we will have to decide whether we can co-operate without Sinn Fein. That is the crunch. I hope it does not come to that, but if it does, and the Government continue to maintain a republican veto, there are those of us in Unionism who will say, ''Give us democratic, accountable government from Westminster.'' That would mean no more Orders in Council. We have had Orders in Council for 31 years, since the proroguing of the Northern Ireland Parliament in Government of 1972, with the exceptions of the on-off nature of the recent Assembly and the short period of the 1974 power-sharing Executive post-Sunningdale. Speaking for myself, I have to say that if we cannot get the matter solved in the next six months, I would lean towards making the Government of my part of the UK democratic and accountable, which is not so under Orders in Council. Given the way in which England and Wales are governed—even with the devolved administrative Welsh Assembly—our standards of citizenship are not equal standards to theirs. We must all support the order. I want to be optimistic, so I look forward to the next six months. I hope we can reach a deal that puts 30 years of terrorism behind us and that we can have stable Government institutions in Belfast. However, if Sinn Fein-IRA do not play the game, the democratic parties will have to move on without them to achieve accountable democratic Government at Stormont, and through local government in Northern Ireland.
7.33 pmAngela Smith: I am grateful for hon. Members' comments. I am a little surprised that so much of the debate took place around Orders in Council. We all hope that devolved Administration will be up and running again, so that we do not need Orders in Council. However, should they be necessary, I hope I have assured the hon. Members for Solihull, for Montgomeryshire and for South Antrim about the changes that the Government would make. I mentioned the three-month consultation process, during which time it would be possible to table amendments to any measures being brought forward. That period of pre-legislative scrutiny would be in addition to the greater use of the Grand Committee. I hope that that satisfies hon. Members' concerns. I am Column Number: 13 sorry if that is not the case. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire is nodding, so perhaps it is.Lembit Öpik: It is. As I said, I felt there was an opportunity for a general moan because I am exhausted by the intensity; the Government are trying to destroy scrutiny by exhausting us. If the Minister is saying specifically that there would be a three-month period, that that is not an aspiration but a pledge, and that those other bodies would be used, that is welcome. Angela Smith: I assure the hon. Gentleman that that would normally be the process. However, I would not want to take away his opportunity for a general moan, because I know he enjoys it so much. He mentioned that he welcomed the order and supported it, as did the hon. Member for Solihull. I did not accept the analogy made by the hon. Member for Solihull with a class of children being kept in after school. This matter is much more serious. Mr. Taylor: The fact that one used a lightweight parallel does not mean that it was without usefulness in demonstrating an injustice. The Minister need not impress on me the fact that we are discussing an issue that is far more serious than keeping in a class of children after school; I know that, of course. Angela Smith: I am sure that the hon. Gentleman does; I was simply puzzled by his choice of analogy. I do not want to get into the merits of what happened last autumn, and I well understand the reasons for the breakdown of confidence then, but nationalists would say that the instability of the institutions destroyed their community's confidence. The important thing is to have trust and confidence throughout all communities in Northern Ireland to ensure that there is confidence and stability in the devolved institutions. No one dissents from that; it is what we all seek. Column Number: 14 I accept what the hon. Member for South Antrim said about this being perhaps one of the most important weeks since the Good Friday agreement was reached. I hope that all sides will take the opportunity to ensure that the devolved institutions get up and running again. The hon. Member for Montgomeryshire harped on a bit about detailed scrutiny of legislation. I hope that I have reassured him. I am repeating myself, as I have said this in various Committees, but we are talking about legislation with which the people of Northern Ireland and Assembly Members were involved, which they debated, and which needed to be passed. Indeed, certain parts of one order with which I dealt had not been subject to the same degree of consultation in Northern Ireland, and I did not put them through but was criticised for that in Northern Ireland. Sometimes, you cannot win. In any case, it would have been wrong for legislation that would have been passed in normal circumstances—had the institutions not been suspended—not to come into force, as the people of Northern Ireland wanted. It was important that we passed that legislation. I understand the concerns expressed, and I hope that I have dealt with them. There can be no room for fudge, as my right hon. Friends the Prime Minister and the Secretary of State for Northern Ireland have made clear. Acts of completion by the paramilitaries are needed. There will be no long-term stability of devolved government unless people are prepared to choose a peaceful and democratic path. We all hope that that will happen in the next couple of weeks, which are crucial. Question put and agreed to. Resolved,
Committee rose at twenty-three minutes to Eight o'clock.
The following Members attended the Committee:
The following also attended, pursuant to Standing Order No. 118(2):
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